Century old LNER wagon unearthed in field near Antwerp

[4COR]

On the BBC today, a story of how a 100 year old LNER removals wagon has been unearthed in a field near Antwerp:

Century-old LNER train carriage unearthed in Belgium

The wooden truck was discovered by archaeologists in Antwerp.

www.bbc.co.uk

From the article:

The find, uncovered in Antwerp, appears to be a wooden removals truck used to carry people's belongings when they moved house, according to rail company LNER.
The York-based firm said it was "a mystery" how the carriage came to be buried in a field in Antwerp.
It added there was "very little left of the relic" as it had disintegrated while being excavated.

London and North Eastern Railway services began operating on what later became known as the East Coast Mainline in January 1923.
Some services were hauled by famous locomotives such as Flying Scotsman, Mallard and Sir Nigel Gresley.
The LNER name returned to the route in June 2018, when previous operator Virgin Trains East Coast returned the franchise to the government.
LNER communications director Stuart Thomas said: "Just last year we celebrated 100 years since the LNER came into being in 1923.
"In our 101st year it’s incredible to discover a little bit of LNER history has been buried in a field in Belgium for so many decades."

 

[Deepgreen]

Truck, wagon or carriage - people seem unsure? I find it very cheeky and disingenuous of the current LNER communications director to claim they are in their 101st year! The current LNER has nothing to do with the 20th century LNER. Also, it isn't "Mainline" but 'Main Line' (or 'main line').

 

[Cowley]

On the BBC today, a story of how a 100 year old LNER removals wagon has been unearthed in a field near Antwerp:

Century-old LNER train carriage unearthed in Belgium

The wooden truck was discovered by archaeologists in Antwerp.

www.bbc.co.uk

From the article:

Fascinating. It’ll be interesting to see what’s left of it when they unearth the rest of it. That writing on the side is in remarkable condition.

 

[norbitonflyer]

"London and North Eastern Railway services began operating on what later became known as the East Coast Mainline in January 1923."

It was known as the East Coast Main Line long before 1923 - certainly by 1860 when the first "East Coast Joint Stock" was built.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Fascinating. It’ll be interesting to see what’s left of it when they unearth the rest of it. That writing on the side is in remarkable condition.

Possibly not as much as on the attached example (Dapol model).
The article mentions the buried ['BD.or BK' type container] disintegrated during excavation work.

 

[4COR]

Fascinating. It’ll be interesting to see what’s left of it when they unearth the rest of it. That writing on the side is in remarkable condition.

Indeed - I suspect it's a Conflat: there are a few images around which match with the colour/font/layout - I wonder if the container is complete with the wagon below (I would guess it might have needed the train ferry to go with the underframe, and that wouldn't have been until 1930s or so?)

 

[Sun Chariot]

Indeed - I suspect it's a Conflat: there are a few images around which match with the colour/font/layout - I wonder if the container is complete with the wagon below (I would guess it might have needed the train ferry to go with the underframe, and that wouldn't have been until 1930s or so?)

I wondered (highly speculatively ) if it had been hired by a family moving home, from an LNER-served UK location, to a location near the container's burial site.
My guess is the BD/BK container was taken off a Conflat (or 3-plank) transit wagon and then craned into the secure hold of a cross-Channel ferry.
Whether it transferred off the ferry onto SNCB rail, or onto a Belgian road haulier, we will never know.
I wonder when (or if!) that container was written off LNER's asset records...

 

[greyman42]

Could it have been anything to do with WW1 if their dates are slightly out?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Could it have been anything to do with WW1 if their dates are slightly out?

I don't think the containers (which were for customer hire e.g. furniture removals) were in existence prior to 1923 Grouping.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Could it have been anything to do with WW1 if their dates are slightly out?

LNER would be WW2 - maybe it got stranded in Belgium after the 1940 German invasion.

 

[4COR]

I don't think BD containers (which were for customer hire e.g. furniture removals) were in existence prior to 1923 Grouping.

In the photo, it also has LNER on the side which didn't exist until grouping anyhow, so definitely not WW1.

 

[Sun Chariot]

In the photo, it also has LNER on the side which didn't exist until grouping anyhow, so definitely not WW1.

Exactly

 

[Deepgreen]

Fascinating. It’ll be interesting to see what’s left of it when they unearth the rest of it. That writing on the side is in remarkable condition.

Seemingly very little of it as the story says it is disintegrating rapidly as it is excavated.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Seemingly very little of it as the story says it is disintegrating rapidly as it is excavated.

Agree. Post #5

 

[Trestrol]

Yes not much left after they excavated it. It was well recorded before disposed of. Apparently it's from the second batch of containers built 1936.Another option is it could have been requisitioned to carry supplies to newly liberated Belgium. Got damaged by the military and left in Belgium. I am sure the LNER were compensated for its loss by the government at a meanial rate. It's unusual as it's maroon not the more common Oxford blue.

 

[stuving]

Another option is it could have been requisitioned to carry supplies to newly liberated Belgium.

Surely that's the most likely explanation? But not just "to" - a lot of railway stock, including locomotives, was taken across to provide logistical support to the Allied forces. French and Belgian railways had taken a battering from military action, and much of what worked was used by the Germans as they evacuated.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Surely that's the most likely explanation? But not just "to" - a lot of railway stock, including locomotives, was taken across to provide logistical support to the Allied forces

I'm not wholly convinced. My gut feel is in post #7.

I have six books which give fascinating insights - pictorial and written - into Britain's railways during World War Two.
Britain's contribution of supplies, centred on:
1) Air Ministry approved fuels for British and Allied forces.
2) Part-assembled military transport and logistics, plus a comprehensive range of parts (e.g. for repairs whilst in action).
3) Ordnance / munitions.

The wagons were typically of steel tankers, warflats and vans (hazardous bombs & shells were carried in wooden wagons...).
I found no examples of wooden containers of any type being used in this way (there were several - some were refrigerated, although this "Antwerp" example is of a general purpose type).

The containers have lower capacity than the typical 4wl vans and wagons of the time; the "Antwerp" example was of an end-loading only style (inhibits the ability to load and unload quickly) and it relied on being carried on a separate wagon. The Big Four's wagons were used in a nationalised "pool" to maximise usage of standard types.

 

[Gloster]

Personally, I would think that it was most likely at Antwerp when the Germans invaded Belgium and ended up being abandoned in the chaos. Thereafter it might have been dumped or used as a store and deteriorated: after the war nobody was interested as the LNER would have written it off. Or it could have been in use in normal peacetime traffic, been damaged beyond economic repair and sold off locally. If they haven’t got the number and are able to tie it up with any still existing registers, I doubt we will ever know.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Personally, I would think that it was most likely at Antwerp when the Germans invaded Belgium and ended up being abandoned in the chaos. Thereafter it might have been dumped or used as a store and deteriorated: after the war nobody was interested as the LNER would have written it off. Or it could have been in use in normal peacetime traffic, been damaged beyond economic repair and sold off locally. If they haven’t got the number and are able to tie it up with any still existing registers, I doubt we will ever know.

Yes, those scenarios are very much where my head is at

 

[StephenHunter]

Surely that's the most likely explanation? But not just "to" - a lot of railway stock, including locomotives, was taken across to provide logistical support to the Allied forces. French and Belgian railways had taken a battering from military action, and much of what worked was used by the Germans as they evacuated.

One of the LMS Jintys was photographed operating East Berlin S-Bahn services in the 1960s.

 

[stuving]

I'm not wholly convinced. My gut feel is in post #7.

I have six books which give fascinating insights - pictorial and written - into Britain's railways during World War Two.
Britain's contribution of supplies, centred on:
1) Air Ministry approved fuels for British and Allied forces.
2) Part-assembled military transport and logistics, plus a comprehensive range of parts (e.g. for repairs whilst in action).
3) Ordnance / munitions.

The wagons were typically of steel tankers, warflats and vans (hazardous bombs & shells were carried in wooden wagons...).
I found no examples of wooden containers of any type being used in this way (there were several - some were refrigerated, although this "Antwerp" example is of a general purpose type).

The containers have lower capacity than the typical 4wl vans and wagpns of the time; the "Antwerp" example was of an end-loading only style (inhibits the ability to load and unload quickly) and it relied on being carried on a separate wagon. The Big Four's wagons were used in a nationalised "pool" to maximise usage of standard types.

Christian Wolmar has a book on this subject, which he wrote about last year (but published in May this year*). One point he made was:

Two thirds of the three million tons of supplies that passed through Cherbourg were carried forward by rail. Some 1,000 US and 1,000 UK locomotives were shipped over, along with 20,000 freight wagons, in order to replace stock destroyed in the conflict or stole by the Germans.

But while that explains a lot of rolling stock being present in France or Belgium, most of that stock would presumably be of standard types suitable for military supplies. So if this one was there in its primary role, it is more likely to have gone across before the war.

*The Liberation Line: The Last Untold Story of the Normandy Landings
Christian Wolmar, RRP: £25.00 ISBN: 9781838957520
Published by Atlantic Books 2 May 2024

 

[507020]

Is there any other source for this than such a short BBC article, that might have some more pictures of the excavation or “disintegrated” remnants following it?

 

[Gloster]

Working off the top of my head, the overwhelming majority of the vehicles that went to the continent were of military or new designs specifically intended to follow the front and for use in reconstruction. There were a few former railway types, the coaches used in ambulance trains come to mind, but most of the goods vehicles were simple designs from the British and US forces. Having an odd container mixed in with the standard designs is going to be a problem, so I don’t think the container would have been used in 1944-1946.

Although it is possible that it was sent to Belgium with military goods in 1940, I would have thought that the speed of the German advance meant that any containers of military goods would only have got to depots in France as the army logistics system never really got into Belgium. It might have been abandoned in France, but not in Antwerp.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Liberation Line: The Last Untold Story of the Normandy Landings
Christian Wolmar, RRP: £25.00 ISBN: 9781838957520
Published by Atlantic Books 2 May 2024

Thanks for this - I'll get that one ordered

 

[Ashley Hill]

I wonder if anything is still in it?

 

[WesternLancer]

The thing that occurred to me was to wonder what the circs were that lead to it being buried?

You would think most such things would end up in use as some sort of storage or in a field as a shed just like you often see in UK

 

[Beebman]

I've found an article in Dutch from local Belgian TV station VRT about the excavation:

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/19/archeologen-stoten-op-100-jaar-oude-treinwagon-in-antwerpen/

It has a second photo taken from the opposite side to the first one which also appears in the BBC article.

 

[Ploughman]

The thing that occurred to me was to wonder what the circs were that lead to it being buried?

You would think most such things would end up in use as some sort of storage or in a field as a shed just like you often see in

Could it have been buried as a quick method of providing an Air raid shelter during WW2?
I recall that some current RAF Bases used covered Bulk skips as a way of providing bomb shelters in remote areas of airfields.

 

[randyrippley]

FWIW my father was based in a railway workshop in Antwerp which was taken over by the REME as a tank repair facility for 5th Armoured Div. Container could well have been used for shipping personnel kit and equipment.

The unit moved several times ending up in Bremerhaven

 

[30907]

A photo (from an LNER staff magazine) on David Turner's FB page shows a very similar furniture container in Antwerp itself.
Antwerp was a ferry destination from Harwich.

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