Challenging a Northern Travel Incident Report which was issued instead of a Penalty Fare Notice

[anotheruser1]

Hi All,

My daughter (18) recently was on the train, she had purchased a ticket via the app and had accidentally selected the 16-17 discount rather than the 16-25 one (one is directly below the other). When the ticket inspector checked her ticket (30th December 2023, 11:12) and asked her age, to which she of course answered truthfully, he than got rather bullish about her having got the wrong ticket and that he would have to write her up for it, leaving her nearly in tears, especially as she had seen him just kick someone else off the train so was quite worried about what was about to happen to her. He took all her details and subsequently a letter arrived allowing her to provide mitigation on the 08th of January, which she did, explaining that it was a genuine error. Another letter has now arrived stating that it is a Fixed Penalty Notice of £100 plus a full fare of £12.80 for the journey.

The ticket she purchased was £5.20 with the 16-17 discount, looking today for the same journey the ticket would have been £5.25 or £6.85 depending on the time of the train.

I looked up how to appeal (nothing was mentioned on the letter) and came across the governments website about the new independant appeals process, reading through the documentation linked to it I can see that there should also have been the ability to reduce that to £50 if paid within 21 days). I looked at the letter again and there is no mention of being able to appeal, or the reduced amount if paid quickly. So I tried ringing them and got the automated message to go to the appeals site, where I did, tried to enter the info only for it to say that the prefix is not valid. So back to Northern. When I eventually got through to someone they advised that it is a Travel Inident Report (TIR) rather than a Penalty Fare Notice(PFN), so she has no right of appeal and that they do not accept mistakes as allowed mitigation. When I mentioned again about the government website specifically stating that 'Penalty fare rules altered to offer greater protection to those making genuine mistakes.' She got rather short with me, once again telling me that the case had already been looked at that it was a TIR so PFN rules didn't apply and this was them being compassionate rather than going straight to court, that because it was a TIR my daughter wasn't allowed to appeal. I told her that it very much feels to me that this is being used unfairly by the rail company to bypass the independant appeals process and to remove the ability to pay a reduced amount, after which she did eventually say that she could 'appeal' by re-emailing the original email address from the first letter to include any additional mitigation, but that in her opinion they were being very generous already and it would be rejected.

There is also the threat on the letter stating that if it does go to court that they will stick on another £150 for costs.

I really can't afford to do it if it goes wrong, but the sheer bullying injustice of it makes me want to ask them to take it to court so it can be challenged. She would already going to be out of pocket £100 if she just pays up, for an innocuous error that would have 'lost' them a grand total of 5p revenue as she would have chosen the £5.25 ticket for her journey.

So, any help/suggestions before I email them back to challange them on their predatory behaviour?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Unfortunately, and I hate it too, they are bang to rights and the best bet is going to be to cough up.

 

[anotheruser1]

Why can the issue a TIR rather than a PFN? That just seems like they are using an unfair process to bypass the PFN and so therefore any independant appeal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can the issue a TIR rather than a PFN? That just seems like they are using an unfair process to bypass the PFN and so therefore any independant appeal.

As I said, it's grossly unfair and unreasonable but they are bang to rights. They don't have to issue a Penalty Fare and can do this instead, or simply go straight to Court, and the Byelaw offence is strict liability so it doesn't matter why she had chosen the wrong Railcard, simply that she had.

For what it's worth if it was a PF an appeal wouldn't succeed either unless on technical grounds e.g. the absence of notices. The upside would be it being half the price.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@anotheruser1. Easy mistake to make, but the (inappropriately claimed) 16-17 discount gives 50% off fares, whereas with a valid 16-25 Railcard, it's only a third reduction. Presume this was a one-off incident, and inspection of your daughter's ticket purchasing history, won't show any further incidents of claiming the wrong discount after having turned 18. Hopefully not the case!

 

[Haywain]

Why can the issue a TIR rather than a PFN?

Because not all staff are authorised to issue Penalty Fares, those that are not only have the TIR option.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why can the issue a TIR rather than a PFN? That just seems like they are using an unfair process to bypass the PFN and so therefore any independant appeal.

You still don’t have a specific right to a penalty fare in a case like this, even if the staff member can issue one.

In general, the railway doesn’t seem to think that selecting the wrong railcard is a mistake. Especially when the accidental selection is often the 16-17 railcard with its larger discount, you can see this forum has dozens of examples of people accidentally selecting the 16-17, and that’s only the relatively small number of people who come here for advice.

 

[RHolmes]

Why can the issue a TIR rather than a PFN? That just seems like they are using an unfair process to bypass the PFN and so therefore any independant appeal.

Because with the TIR an investigation is carried out (as is required in this situation) to calculate the exact cost value of the tickets that we’re not correctly purchased by your daughter in total rather than a single event.

A TIR can be used in situations where multiple occasions of fare evasion can be dealt with in a single occasion and by single payment

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Another letter has now arrived stating that it is a Fixed Penalty Notice of £100 plus a full fare of £12.80 for the journey.

I looked up how to appeal (nothing was mentioned on the letter) and came across the governments website about the new independant appeals process, reading through the documentation linked to it I can see that there should also have been the ability to reduce that to £50 if paid within 21 days). I looked at the letter again and there is no mention of being able to appeal, or the reduced amount if paid quickly. So I tried ringing them and got the automated message to go to the appeals site, where I did, tried to enter the info only for it to say that the prefix is not valid. So back to Northern. When I eventually got through to someone they advised that it is a Travel Inident Report (TIR) rather than a Penalty Fare Notice(PFN),

While Northern have done nothing illegal, the OP's daughter has been caught by some rather sharp practice - and not helped by some muddle by the call centre.

The appeal system is for Penalty Fare Notices (PFNs) but what was sent in the post was a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) which is something Northern have invented for themselves and have given a confusing name. The FPN has no appeal process because what it actually is is an opportunity to settle out of court. If the OP's daughter doesn't want to settle on those terms, they can go to court instead - the court acting instead of an appeal.

The problem with this is that court is unlikely to find in the OP's daughter's favour. So it's not much of an appeal process.

Is this a satisfactory state of affairs? No, it isn't. But it is how things stand and for the moment is the perspective that the FPN of £112.80 should be seen in. My advice for the immediate problem must be to pay the £112.80 as it's likely any other solution will be more expensive and take longer to sort out.

 

[furlong]

Not good news. Some people on here give them the nickname 'Penalty Fakes' and you probably now understand why. I think there are only really two ways to challenge this. There are some legal arguments available but you'd need a lawyer to make them correctly and the cost would be greater than anything you save and you'd have to be prepared for failure (and potentially a criminal conviction). The other way is through the media, where the best outcome is probably a sympathiser giving you the money to pay it. It's really down to the government to outlaw this practice but they'd probably want parliamentary time to update Penalty Fares legislation first.

In other words, you'll need to find the money to pay, then take it up with your M.P. and if you can, perhaps try to get a campaign going for the government to regulate this.