Chances of just having to pay the price of the correct ticket?

[TrainerMarch]

Hi, I accidently bought a same day return instead of an open return. I returned the next day to find the barriers wouldn't open and was stopped by revenue control when he checked my ticket. I was handed a penalty notice but he said to try and appeal it on the grounds that I mistakenly bought a ticket and that they might just make me pay the difference between the two tickets?

Is there any chance of an appeal being successful or will I just need to pay the fine? I feel like he was saying that to stop me from kicking off about an honest mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They usually say that to prevent people getting cross, yes.

Is what you received a Penalty Fare, which would be for £100 + ticket price discountable to £50 + ticket price if promptly paid? If so on the face of it it's correctly issued, though there are other possible grounds for appeal e.g. deficient signage?

 

[TrainerMarch]

That's correct

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, I accidently bought a same day return instead of an open return. I returned the next day to find the barriers wouldn't open and was stopped by revenue control when he checked my ticket. I was handed a penalty notice but he said to try and appeal it on the grounds that I mistakenly bought a ticket and that they might just make me pay the difference between the two tickets?

Is there any chance of an appeal being successful or will I just need to pay the fine? I feel like he was saying that to stop me from kicking off about an honest mistake.

Hi - I think we need to be 100% clear about what you were handed - as some things they can issue when people have the wrong ticket have no right of appeal.

Which train company was this (the company that operated the station where this happened, which may not be the same as the company that operated the train you were on)?

That's correct yes. I've got an orange print out slip from his ticket machine thing with details on.

Does it say the words 'Penalty Fare' on it?

can you easily upload a copy with the ref numbers / any personal details removed.

How did you get on the train with the ticket that was not valid for travel that day? eg was it at a station with no barriers, or the barriers left open for example?

It might help if you stated the names of the stations where you got on and off the train. I assume you were stopped after you got off the train, and had thus completed the journey with the wrong ticket.

 

[TrainerMarch]

Hi - I think we need to be 100% clear about what you were handed - as some things they can issue when people have the wrong ticket have no right of appeal.

Which train company was this (the company that operated the station where this happened, which may not be the same as the company that operated the train you were on)?


Does it say the words 'Penalty Fare' on it?

can you easily upload a copy with the ref numbers / any personal details removed.

How did you get on the train with the ticket that was not valid for travel that day? eg was it at a station with no barriers, or the barriers left open for example?

It might help if you stated the names of the stations where you got on and off the train. I assume you were stopped after you got off the train, and had thus completed the journey with the wrong ticket.

I've attached 2 photos of the slip.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've attached 2 photos of the slip. I was travelling on TransPennine (who I had a ticket for) but was stopped at Manchester Victoria which I assume is Northern operated given the slip says Northern Rail?

Thanks for images.

Yes, it will be that the staff at Manchester Vic who issued it will be Northern Rail staff as you say.

The Appeal process is done by an independent body but AIUI the Appeal has be for a specific reason set out in the Penalty Fares rules as to why the Penalty has not been issued validly. I suspect what you were told by staff does not meet that criteria, but gives you 'false hope'. However, worth keeping an eye on the thread for a day or two to see if anyone posts good grounds that you could use to Appeal.

There can, for example, be technical grounds based on the Penalty Fare warning signage being wrongly worded at the station you boarded the train at, but you'd probably need advice form experts here to Appeal on that basis, if the signage was in fact wrong.

You do not want to miss the prompt payment deadline which reduces the Penalty element of it by 50%, but if you do opt to Appeal it 'stops the clock' on that deadline whilst the Appeal is submitted.

I fear that the chance of them upholding an appeal on the basis that you bought the wrong type of return ticket by mistake is slim to non existent, sadly.

 

[TrainerMarch]

Thanks for images.

Yes, it will be that the staff at Manchester Vic who issued it will be Northern Rail staff as you say.

The Appeal process is done by an independent body but AIUI the Appeal has be for a specific reason set out in the Penalty Fares rules as to why the Penalty has not been issued validly. I suspect what you were told by staff does not meet that criteria. However, worth keeping an eye on the thread for a day or two to see if anyone posts good grounds that you could use to Appeal.

There can, for example, be technical grounds based on the Penalty Fare warning signage being wrong at the station you boarded the train at, but you'd probably need advice form experts here to Appeal on that basis, if the signage was in fact wrong.

You do not want to miss the prompt payment deadline which reduces the Penalty element of it by 50%, but if you do opt to Appeal it 'stops the clock' on that deadline whilst the Appeal is submitted.

I fear that the chance of them upholding an appeal on the basis that you bought the wrong type of return ticket by mistake is slim to non existent, sadly.

Thank you. Appreciate the help

 

[thedbdiboy]

Thanks for images.

Yes, it will be that the staff at Manchester Vic who issued it will be Northern Rail staff as you say.

The Appeal process is done by an independent body but AIUI the Appeal has be for a specific reason set out in the Penalty Fares rules as to why the Penalty has not been issued validly. I suspect what you were told by staff does not meet that criteria, but gives you 'false hope'. However, worth keeping an eye on the thread for a day or two to see if anyone posts good grounds that you could use to Appeal.

There can, for example, be technical grounds based on the Penalty Fare warning signage being wrongly worded at the station you boarded the train at, but you'd probably need advice form experts here to Appeal on that basis, if the signage was in fact wrong.

You do not want to miss the prompt payment deadline which reduces the Penalty element of it by 50%, but if you do opt to Appeal it 'stops the clock' on that deadline whilst the Appeal is submitted.

I fear that the chance of them upholding an appeal on the basis that you bought the wrong type of return ticket by mistake is slim to non existent, sadly.

The only stage at which your reason for not having a valid ticket has any real possibility of being considered as mitigation is likely to be the Third Stage appeal - no guarantees but that is really the only point at which wider circumstances might be acknowledged. So if you are prepared to go through all the stages it might be worth it.

 

[RPI]

Is this a case of the Trainline "open return", which isn't actually what any normal person would think is an "open return?" If that's the case then technically the Penalty Fare has been correctly issued, but I would certainly complain in no uncertain terms to Trainline, it causes no end of issues, whilst I myself generally take a more pragmatic view when I encounter this issue, generally just selling the appropriate (discounted if appropriate) ticket, it doesn't change the fact that it can leave passengers open to either a Penalty Fare or report for prosecution. The term "Open return" to the layman would suggest an "open ended return", I certainly empathise with the OP.

 

[island]

I've attached 2 photos of the slip.

The attachment did not work.

 

[WesternLancer]

The attachment did not work.

It was showing OK earlier - it was clearly a Penalty Fare from what I could see.

 

[wilbers]

If the return half was at the origin for the ticket before travel had commenced then why didn't they just offer to sell you a single (which may have been almost as much as the day return)? was Victoria an interchange station instead?