Charging eScooters on a train?

[TheSeeker]

Yesterday I watched a guy plug his eScooter into a socket to charge on a Siemens Desiro.

Would that have any effect on the scooter and/or the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine so, it's just a lithium battery, like that in a laptop but bigger.

 

[lincolnshire]

I wonder if he would be happy if I called at his home and plugged in my e.scooter to charge it? Its actually theft form the train company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if he would be happy if I called at his home and plugged in my e.scooter to charge it? Its actually theft form the train company.

As the sockets are provided for public use, no it isn't.

 

[43066]

Yesterday I watched a guy plug his eScooter into a socket to charge on a Siemens Desiro.

Would that have any effect on the scooter and/or the train?

Is it a socket for public use?

It might have an effect on the passenger if he ends up being prosecuted for abstraction of electricity… Strictly speaking it is an offence (someone was arrested for using a cleaners’ socket on a train a few years back), mad as that sounds .

 

[Dai Corner]

If the charger tried to take too much current it would trip a circuit breaker.

I'm not sure how it could be regarded as theft. Charging mobile phones is allowed, even encouraged.

 

[Spet0789]

I thought most TOCs didn’t allow e-Scooters on trains at all?

 

[YorksLad12]

I did once see someone charge a laptop (while using it) near the car park ticket machines just inside the car park entrance at Leeds. Which made me think that 3-pin outlets should be remotely disabled, or dedicated charging points created.

Instinctively I don't think you should be plugging anything in to a 3-pin socket on a train or at a station, when you don't know what the effect will be on the rest of the power supply. Failing that, change the plug sockets to 3-pin round, like we have in our flats where I live (for the lighting circuit).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did once see someone charge a laptop (while using it) near the car park ticket machines just inside the car park entrance at Leeds. Which made me think that 3-pin outlets should be remotely disabled, or dedicated charging points created.

Instinctively I don't think you should be plugging anything in to a 3-pin socket on a train or at a station, when you don't know what the effect will be on the rest of the power supply. Failing that, change the plug sockets to 3-pin round, like we have in our flats where I live (for the lighting circuit).

If there would be an adverse effect on the power supply, then the power supply is not fit for purpose (and so illegal) and must be decommissioned.

It might have an effect on the device if it's not a solid 230VAC, though. But really I would agree any socket that won't deliver 230VAC (e.g. sockets for vacuum cleaners on some older trains) should be a different type so they cannot be used by accident, or behind a locked panel.

These days it is convention that if you are a paying customer of a business where it might be reasonable to use a laptop/charge a phone, a socket is fair game unless it says otherwise. Businesses need to act accordingly.

I thought most TOCs didn’t allow e-Scooters on trains at all?

I've only heard of TfL having banned them.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I thought they were provided only to charge mobile phones etc.

Perhaps they could be programmed to suck power out of the batteries of €scooters and the like.

 

[hexagon789]

I've only heard of TfL having banned them.

ScotRail only permit them folded and with the battery removed. And ScotRail sockets are labelled 'for laptops/mobiles only'.

 

[GB]

Perhaps they could be programmed to suck power out of the batteries of €scooters and the like.

Then it would be the railway company in hot water for theft of electricity.

 

[mmh]

As is often the case, those who give advice about electricity seem to be those with a very limited understanding of how it works.

And it's not their fault, our society and education leads to children, rightly, being told it's dangerous but unfortunately then adults don't understand it but think they do and share their wisdom with other adults.

 

[172007]

As a population we have become accustomed, even programmed by the plethora of notices both health and safety and guidance that basically tell us what we generally can and can't do. Covid has exacerbated this situation potentially. From a young age we learn that if the sign says "don't walk on the grass we don't, no sign then it's allowed.

If you find a socket in a public place you use it if there is no sign.

Controversial but that's how it is increasingly seen, especially the younger generation.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I saw it a few days ago on a Class 378 London Overground train. Someone plugged an e-scooter into the socket near the doors. There was clearly a sticker saying not for public use.

No adverse performance on the trains as far as I could tell. Also considering that your home socket is rated for only 13A, 230V, which is negligible power considering that the train would be consuming a maximum of 3200A at 750V (based on a quick calculation from 378 data on wiki).

 

[DaveTM]

Sockets that have been provided for public use must not result in disgruntled passengers sueing the TOC because the train destroyed their expensive device. Therefore they will be fed from an expensive power supply that will provide a reasonably clean 230V sine wave output near 50Hz with an appropriate current limit (i.e. the circuit breaker will trip if the user plugs in too high a load. The passenger's delicate device is protected from a dirty supply and the train is protected from the idiot passenger who plugs in a kettle.

Sockets that have been provided for the use of cleaners to plug in a carpet shampooer or vacuum cleaner may not provide such a clean output (although it will probably still be protected by a circuit breaker); particularly if this saved money when the train was built. For instance the voltage may be out of tolerance or the frequency may be quite far from 50Hz, or the voltage may be a square wave or noisy or have a significant DC component. All these deviations from the normal UK 230V@50Hz,sine are not going to be a problem for simple devices like the motors in a vacuum or a light bulb, but there was a period of time when more sensitive devices might have suffered.

However, these days most devices have a switch mode power supply at their input which can tolerate any voltage from the US standard of 110V up to a 340V peak to peak square wave, delivered at any conceivable frequency. So if you see a phone charger or e-scooter plugged into a "not for public use" socket, it probably won't catch fire.

 

[supervc-10]

hese days most devices have a switch mode power supply at their input which can tolerate any voltage from the US standard of 110V up to a 340V peak to peak square wave, delivered at any conceivable frequency

I'd trust my laptop or phone charger in one of those sockets, but not sure I'd trust an AliExpress e-scooter

Agree that if there's no sign saying not to use a socket, then there's no issues using it.

 

[AM9]

... However, these days most devices have a switch mode power supply at their input which can tolerate any voltage from the US standard of 110V up to a 340V peak to peak square wave, delivered at any conceivable frequency. So if you see a phone charger or e-scooter plugged into a "not for public use" socket, it probably won't catch fire.

Yes of course, even the cheapest Chinese switch mode power adaptor is designed to 'work' with the major global nominal 230v 50Hz and nominal 115v 60Hz domestic supply standards, and also with less than pure sine waveforms from home inverters, but 340V squarewave is an exaggeration that I doubt any manufacturer would entertain a complaint about. Moreover, equipment that is operating with poor supplies may be operating outside the limits that its EMC qualification supports and as a consequence, interfere with other legally operating equipment in the vicinity.
If a socket is marked 'not for public use', it probably means if you are a member of the public, then don't use it. I really don't care whether passengers who don't understand that end up destroying their cherished toys, but sometimes, an inappriopriate supply can create fire hazards that threaten the safety and wellbeing of others. That includes the trip hazard of a cabled device beimng plugged in immediately adjacent to the main exit doors of an in service train. In the case of the 378 socket misuse a few years ago, that facility I presume was for depot use when the train would be static and generally free from surges and power dumps. The railway would be perfectly within its rights to sue a person ignoring such an explicit notice.

 

[D365]

I saw it a few days ago on a Class 378 London Overground train. Someone plugged an e-scooter into the socket near the doors. There was clearly a sticker saying not for public use.

There was a story in the news a few years ago - a passenger was found kicking off at train staff, and subsequently the transport police, after having been asked to remove their mobile charger from one of those ”not for public use” sockets. Said passenger went running to the media claiming that they had been arrested for ”abstraction of electricity”.

 

[miami]

an inappriopriate supply can create fire hazards that threaten the safety and wellbeing of others

The railway would be perfectly within its rights to sue a person ignoring such an explicit notice.

If it has the potential to be dangerous to others or cause a fire, the circuit should be disconnected via a dual-throw switch in a locked location when out of use, rather than relying on someone

1) Reading the sign (Blind, can't read)
2) Understanding the sign (can't read English)
3) Obeying the sign

 

[cjmillsnun]

I saw it a few days ago on a Class 378 London Overground train. Someone plugged an e-scooter into the socket near the doors. There was clearly a sticker saying not for public use.

No adverse performance on the trains as far as I could tell. Also considering that your home socket is rated for only 13A, 230V, which is negligible power considering that the train would be consuming a maximum of 3200A at 750V (based on a quick calculation from 378 data on wiki).

You may say negligible power, however if every class 378 had someone using that, that’s an extra 170 kW of demand. Enough to power 2 houses.

 

[miami]

So negligable then compared with the 1600 houses the trains are pulling.

Even a 30 minute charge pulling 3kw would cost 15p at 2019/20 railway rates, and only 30p at domestic rates, far less than the cost of a single ticket.

Are there many overground journeys longer than 30 minutes?

It looks like the average e-scooter is only 700Wh anyway, so even a full charge would cost a maximum of 7p.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So negligable then compared with the 1600 houses the trains are pulling.

Even a 30 minute charge pulling 3kw would cost 15p at 2019/20 railway rates, and only 30p at domestic rates, far less than the cost of a single ticket.

Are there many overground journeys longer than 30 minutes?

It looks like the average e-scooter is only 700Wh anyway, so even a full charge would cost a maximum of 7p.

No not negligible at all. It is still an unbudgeted cost to the railway. The sockets are not for public use for a reason.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If it has the potential to be dangerous to others or cause a fire, the circuit should be disconnected via a dual-throw switch in a locked location when out of use, rather than relying on someone

1) Reading the sign (Blind, can't read)
2) Understanding the sign (can't read English)
3) Obeying the sign

If a person is unable to read the signage due to poor eyesight, wouldn't they also be unable to locate and use the socket?

 

[talltim]

No not negligible at all. It is still an unbudgeted cost to the railway. The sockets are not for public use for a reason.

But are the sockets not for public use on a Desiro?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a socket is marked 'not for public use', it probably means if you are a member of the public, then don't use it.

I certainly agree, but it'd be so simple just to fit sockets which require a key to turn them on, or fit a carriage key locked cover, and the problem completely goes away.

You could argue "but people should behave", but we accept that they don't. If we thought they did, droplights and central door locking would never have been a thing.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

But are the sockets not for public use on a Desiro?

All available sockets on a Desiro are for public use, clearly labelled for phone/laptop use only.

The different versions have varying amounts of sockets, so a /2 only has sockets in 1st class whereas 1/3/4 generally have them at all seats and cabs too (from my experience).

If I saw someone charging an e-scooter/bike I would be asking them to stop, but I don't think it would really be worth escalation other than a quick report to control.

I certainly agree, but it'd be so simple just to fit sockets which require a key to turn them on, or fit a carriage key locked cover, and the problem completely goes away.

I do miss this from working 172's, before the internal refresh at WMR. Only sockets were the cleaners one's at the doors which didn't work unless the panel was opened and socket activated saw many a teen sat by them failing to get any charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but the ScotRail 153s have sockets provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes. Is that the forward-looking approach?

 

[3rd rail land]

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but the ScotRail 153s have sockets provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes. Is that the forward-looking approach?

Maybe getting to and from some of the more rural stations by e-scooter is a growing trend hence ScotRail catering for this market?

 

[miami]

All available sockets on a Desiro are for public use, clearly labelled for phone/laptop use only.

I've seen a socket on a 350/2 (I think a /2 - the ones without sockets at seats) which doesn't look like a normal accessible one - by one of the the cab doors, under the seat.

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but the ScotRail 153s have sockets provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes. Is that the forward-looking approach?

Of course it is, encouraging e-scooters is good for the country, and good for the railway, as it reduces car usage.

Many in the rail community think things should be like the 1950s with steam engines pulling pulman dinning coaches while staring out of the window at the boys in shorts waving their flat caps. If the railway has a future it must be as part of an integrated low carbon transport solution, and e-scooters + e-bikes are a big part of that.