Charter Trains - LSL vs The Others

[Masboroughlad]

Owning 4 companies that operate special trains, across a spectrum of markets, Jim Hosking runs many tours a year. At the moment, they won't hire out trains. Given his vast wealth, although I am sure they are run commercially, it must be a great hobby too?

What chance do the other smaller to medium sized charter train companies have competing with this?

 

[JonathanH]

What chance do the other smaller to medium sized charter train companies have competing with this?

Plenty. They are appealing to different markets.

At the moment, they won't hire out trains.

Why is that relevant? Riviera, WCRC, ROG, SRPS have charter stock which can be hired out. Vintage Trains have another rake of coaches.

 

[47827]

Owning 4 companies that operate special trains, across a spectrum of markets, JEREMY Hosking runs many tours

What chance do the other smaller to medium sized charter train companies have competing with this?

They haven't as nobody has the money or motivation to try and do so directly. The best thing they can all do (from experience) is not to try to. So, in essence, looking for the gaps in the market that LSL currently don't fill. The main one is the fact they have ditched standard class. And OK that doesn't sell as well as used to, but if the trains have a friendly/none stuffy atmosphere there will be at least a coach or two demand on many still which can greatly boost margins on a charter or help it break even. Where its harder to find gaps is actually in the pickups side increasingly as LSL are trying to run off most areas between London and the Scottish Central belt now, with the South West on a smaller scale and have the hst advantage on offering the cream of the crop in previously increasingly difficult or impossible Highland day trips from Northern England. But there are still gaps for now, many of which the other promoters and stock owners are still exploiting.

 

[DarloRich]

What chance do the other smaller to medium sized charter train companies have competing with this?

Plenty. It might need a bit more thought about targets and destinations but there is a market out there. I doubt they can complete on a like for like basis but one segment of the market is not all of the market.

 

[underbank]

It's a great shame that none of the charter firms appear interested in running "specials" for sporting events, like football matches. It's crazy that it's so difficult to get public transport from the Northern towns/cities to football matches at Wembley, meaning huge numbers of fans travel on the congested roads. The last time we tried, it was, literally, impossible due to there being no service trains heading North after the match finished.

 

[JonathanH]

It's a great shame that none of the charter firms appear interested in running "specials" for sporting events, like football matches. It's crazy that it's so difficult to get public transport from the Northern towns/cities to football matches at Wembley, meaning huge numbers of fans travel on the congested roads. The last time we tried, it was, literally, impossible due to there being no service trains heading North after the match finished.

Don't the club supporters associations put coaches on? Realistically, coaches provide a much more flexible and cost-effective option for getting sporting fans to matches. I note that the available charter stock doesn't offer what the travelling public expect in terns of facilities nowadays either and is just not economic to update or maintain to those standards.

It is very difficult to provide chartered rail transport at a cost which is within range of the normal (weekend) train ticket prices. (Was it the now defunct Thomas Cook who was the last travel operator in the relevant market hiring Riviera stock?)

I note that I was in Gloucester a few weeks back and saw a coach picking up Manchester United supporters for a match later that day.

 

[Iskra]

It's a great shame that none of the charter firms appear interested in running "specials" for sporting events, like football matches. It's crazy that it's so difficult to get public transport from the Northern towns/cities to football matches at Wembley, meaning huge numbers of fans travel on the congested roads. The last time we tried, it was, literally, impossible due to there being no service trains heading North after the match finished.

Plenty of football specials have run to and from London/Wembley in recent years.

It does however require the club to have the desire and organisational skills to manage it…

 

[Bertie the bus]

Plenty of football specials have run to and from London/Wembley in recent years.

When you say plenty I presume you mean in total over a number of years because for each event, e.g. an FA Cup Final involving a Northern team, it is usually 1 or possibly 2 trains max.

Footexes have run until really quite recently. When Wembley was being rebuilt there were a large number going to/from Cardiff and there are still extras for events at Cardiff. I went to a Championship Playoff Final at Cardiff and there must have been about 10 Footexes. Why the rail industry has pretty much given up on Wembley is a mystery and pretty disgraceful.

 

[JonathanH]

Plenty of football specials have run to and from London/Wembley in recent years.

Although they ran in the early and middle part of the decade, the number of these had dwindled considerably before March 2020.

 

[Iskra]

When you say plenty I presume you mean in total over a number of years because for each event, e.g. an FA Cup Final involving a Northern team, it is usually 1 or possibly 2 trains max.

Footex's have run until really quite recently. When Wembley was being rebuilt there were a large number going to/from Cardiff and there are still extras for events at Cardiff. Why the rail industry has pretty much given up on Wembley is a mystery and pretty disgraceful.

Chelsea and Manchester United have been running them for some of their matches too.

 

[JonathanH]

Why the rail industry has pretty much given up on Wembley is a mystery and pretty disgraceful.

I dont think they have. Chiltern still change their service for Wembley events. Do they still run the 'Club Wembley' train for England matches?

It was never the franchised operators who hired Riviera stock for Wembley matches (and they couldn't now anyway because of the accessibility / droplight issues). It was a third party organisation. I thought Thomas Cook was involved (and is now bust).

Whatever the situation, it isn't a matter for LSL or the main players in the day trip market.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I dont think they have. Chiltern still change their service for Wembley events. Do they still run the 'Club Wembley' train for England matches?

Yes they have given up on it. When Virgin ran the WCML franchise not only did they not run additionals, if a northern team were involved in a big Wembley game they used to put posters up saying don't even think about using the train to get to the match as they will be busy and you will be refused boarding.

Chelsea and Manchester United have been running them for some of their matches too.

2 or 3 trains per season. So what?

 

[DarloRich]

It's a great shame that none of the charter firms appear interested in running "specials" for sporting events, like football matches. It's crazy that it's so difficult to get public transport from the Northern towns/cities to football matches at Wembley, meaning huge numbers of fans travel on the congested roads. The last time we tried, it was, literally, impossible due to there being no service trains heading North after the match finished.

They do run almost every time clubs play at Wembley but it is hard when, to suit TV, the cup final moves to something stupid like 5:27 kick off AFTER the plans have been agreed with the TOC's for maintenance.

It does however require the club to have the desire and organisational skills to manage it…

or have a travel partner that can. Thomas Cook used to be the travel partner for the PL and they have organised trains in the recent past. C

Although they ran in the early and middle part of the decade, the number of these had dwindled considerably before March 2020.

There are also difficulties in access/timetabling for games especially late in the evening.

Yes they have given up on it. When Virgin ran the WCML franchise not only did they not run additionals, if a northern team were involved in a big Wembley game they used to put posters up saying don't even think about using the train to get to the match as they will be busy and you will be refused boarding

No: What they said was don't turn up without a booking or you will be refused. I mean it isn't as if they sponsored ( and still do sponsor) clubs in the North West AND offered a 25% corporate discount on tickets.

 

[Bertie the bus]

No: What they said was don't turn up without a booking or you will be refused. I mean it isn't as if they sponsored ( and still do sponsor) clubs in the North West AND offered a 25% corporate discount on tickets.

I'm sure Virgin Trains sponsoring Carlisle United has real, significant relevance to a point about the service they provided to FA Cup Finals involving some of the big North West teams. I'll just have to think about it for a couple of decades to work out what that relevance is.

 

[Iskra]

Yes they have given up on it. When Virgin ran the WCML franchise not only did they not run additionals, if a northern team were involved in a big Wembley game they used to put posters up saying don't even think about using the train to get to the match as they will be busy and you will be refused boarding.

2 or 3 trains per season. So what?

It’s more than that.

Pretty sure the Merseyside clubs, Man City and Spurs do it too.

Plus, Northern run them frequently for West Yorkshire Clubs.

I think EMR might do some too.

It’s not an insignificant amount, and it’s a respectable effort considering the railway doesn’t have the amount of spare stock sitting about that BR did.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure Virgin Trains sponsoring Carlisle United has real, significant relevance to a point about the service they provided to FA Cup Finals involving some of the big North West teams. I'll just have to think about it for a couple of decades to work out what that relevance is.

Well, Virgin offered the corporate discount to Manchester City supporters club and, I THINK, the Manchester United supporters club ( but most of those will have been London > Manchester tickets ). I think they are fairly big clubs.......................

 

[Iskra]

Well, Virgin offered the corporate discount to Manchester City supporters club and, I THINK, the Manchester United supporters club ( but most of those will have been London > Manchester tickets ). I think they are fairly big clubs.......................

LNER offer discounts to LUFC season ticket holders too

 

[D6968]

It's a great shame that none of the charter firms appear interested in running "specials" for sporting events, like football matches. It's crazy that it's so difficult to get public transport from the Northern towns/cities to football matches at Wembley, meaning huge numbers of fans travel on the congested roads. The last time we tried, it was, literally, impossible due to there being no service trains heading North after the match finished.

How many times are kick off times moved at the last minute though to suit the likes of Mr Murdoch and other TV companies? And of course those lovely people in charge of our national game? A few years ago wasn’t there a big problem with the FA moving a Semi Final to a half five KO at Wembley between the red and blue teams of Merseyside then getting flack because fans realised how difficult it would be because of scheduled engineering work by Network Rail?
Riviera used to do a lot of stuff with Wales and West for the Rugby at Cardiff when the Millennium first opened and that always worked reasonably well, but then that was because the WRFU didn’t mess about with kick off times too much.

 

[47827]

Footexs and other sports people movers have been victims of a number of obstacles in recent years that have reduced their numbers:
*Spiralling Costs (although for Northern teams at Wembley they are often still viable if there are the right marketing networks)

*Reduction of available suitable rolling stock. Aggravated by the shift toward first class and dining, along with contraction of suppliers willing and able to supply and operate these. WCRC pretty much won't touch them now and have moved resources elsewhere so not available as one example.

*Increasingly harder to path and accommodate on the ever congested network along with increased issues concerning engineering work on top of that.

*Reduction in knowledge/competency/will to organise them, some of which is tied in with the above and some to do with the fact many people who did a lot of it in the past are long retired or deceased now.

Have never organised any but used to be a little closer to the networks involved in them and have stewarded or assisted the organiser of a small number on occasions in the 2000s. They are entirely different beast to normal railtours of any kind and of course the stock takes a hammering from additional soiling, mess and sometimes damage. They aren't for the faint hearted and in fact some of the movement away had already begun before the last decade because of the above issues with fans.

 

[bleeder4]

Of LSL's 4 brands only 1 of them is really aimed at the enthusiast, and that's Inter-city. Saphos and Statesman is mainly diners and general "non train" people looking for an enjoyable day out. Midland Pullman does get some enthusiasts but they're very much a minority. Whenever I go on a railtour with any of the other TOCs or promoters I can practically guarantee I will hear "train chatter" all around me. Whenever I go on a Saphos or Statesman trip it's a very different crowd and I rarely find anyone on board I can talk trains with. The on-board service with LSL is exceptional though, far better than any of the others. They've clearly positioned themselves in the "lower premium" end of the market, beneath Northern Belle and Belmond British Pullman but above all the other railtour TOCs and promoters.