Moreover, I was replying to @LOL The Irony's statement that they were the worst company in the world, and I said they'd obviously never tried Banga or Trustybus.
It was quoted with my post, not LOL The Irony's post and was commented as part of a paragraph aimed at my post.
There are some decent routes there in the 84 and the 31/37. Stagecoach could've looked to expand into Cheshire more than just with the 84. They clearly think running out from Waverton to Crewe but don't believe it's worth the effort to look further.
31/37 are too far for Stagecoach to normally go. Given the 31/37 interwork, either they had to both be taken or they had to have a lot of layover. The combined PVR of the 31/37 is 6. That's a lot of buses to commit to an area which at their closest points are 17 miles away from the depot. You'd need to set up an outstation over there and I don't think that is feasible to do, certainly not while Stagecoach are going around closing outstations, they aren't going to open a new one. Either that or you'd need a lot of additional passengers to help pay for the shunt cars needed to get drivers to/from their buses.
I don't know how you feel I implied CEC had any role in GHA's failure. It was the owners who were responsible as the public enquiry so definitively showed.
No no, I didn't mean Cheshire East Council, I meant literally Cheshire East as in the borough and the network which they ran.
The only part that the council would have played in some of the downfall is the same as what is happening now, the council doesn't like to promote them and prefer people in cars. The original comment though did not mean the council.
If you're demanding higher quality buses, then that will be reflected in higher tender prices. Given that CEC (and CEW) aren't known for their largesse in funding bus services, then I doubt they'll be funds to do that without adversely affecting overall provision.
The Streetlites are decent vehicles, not stupidly high spec but of a decent quality and seem looked after. Their E200s on the other hand seem really poor. The Tyrers Versas aren't awful but could do with an interior spruce up, they seem a bit tired and worn inside.
More realistically is that we hope D&G can make a decent fist of the 31/37 and 38 and they'll be able to justify new or near new vehicles.
Depends on how it's managed. If it's anything like Chaserider, it will be ran with Solos by week 3. If it's anything like the rest of D&Gs Crewe operation, it will be Solos and E200s after a few months. That's exactly what happened with the 38 when they started it. Ran with decent buses, locals thought 'ooh, maybe D&G have gotten their act together' then it got quickly downgraded and slowly solos started running on it. The 82 and 88/89 was the same. It starts to look good but then slowly drops in quality until you reach the 56 plate solo on the core interurban route. Unlike other firms, D&G doesn't really investing to get more passengers, it just 'just plod on as people have no choice to use us whether we put a horse and cart on or a 73 plate E200MMC'.
Perhaps when talking to your source, did Deep Throat reveal why these Manchester operators who were looking at Cheshire East tenders either a) were unsuccessful or b) elected not to tender?
They only started looking as part of the Arriva Winsford collapse. Of which, as far as we can see, no tender has gone out for Macclesfield work. It was all taken on commercially or making adjustments to existing tenders. If other work comes up, they will take another look.
PS - Midland Classic had a minor shareholding from JP though it was James Boddice's firm. Select also has a JP shareholding but clearly much greater links to that and D&G/Chaserider.
I stand by and repeat my point that Midland Classic is the best operator that JP had his finger in. However small of a shareholding, he was a part of the firm.
Both GHA and Arriva bought a number of the smaller operators, so with GHA collapsing and Arriva withdrawing there's not many left behind. Some of the small ones remaining are more likely to just stick to picking up school and college contracts Arriva are returning, rather than taking on service work. While some of the coach hire companies that did service work in the past, seem to be sticking to just coach hire again now.
With coach drivers still having a shortage at many firms, it's probably easier for them to focus on that work. Given the quality of some of the Cheshire East independents too, their vehicles aren't the best. They are quite similar to Arrowebrook in Chester which closed down recently, any route would work between schools (which none of the Arriva routes did, they were all routes which ran all day with no gap for schools). The buses they run too are older buses which wouldn't be well received by the public if ran on local services.
But if a half hourly service requires 2 buses, adding another bus increases the costs by 50% in terms of a driver and running cost of the vehicle. If they're not going to see that leading to increased revenue at the farebox, then it makes precisely no sense to do so. It's a simple, commercial decision.
Half hourly requires 1 bus on the hourly shorts plus 3 buses on the hourly end to end trips. It would be an additional 1 bus to make it every 20 minutes Nantwich-Crewe (5 buses in all. Equating to the same resources that Arriva throw at it). I am not suggesting they put the 84 on more frequently than now, It would be the same timetable as current when the 84 is viable. Arriva just can't justify keeping the 84 running and to move it to another depot would mean too much effort and additional costs (such as Chester depot would be cost prohibitive) would be viable at every 20 minutes and as I say, I hope that they realise that in time and increase the frequency before the route loses too many passengers with the bus being less convenient. Only time will tell on that though.
Your tedious criticism is based solely upon your own opinion and nothing factual. That much is clear from reading your posts in this thread. Leave running buses to people who know how to do so.
Sorry, I forgot my opinion and experiences aren't valid on this forum.
No one, for nor against, can give evidence as they don't have the stats but as individuals, we do have experiences where we can judge trends. What evidence can be provided of a bus cancellation since if you're left at the side of the road by a no show, that is just your experience, you have no evidence to prove it. Take a photo people will say you have changed the timestamp and tracking - as we know that isn't always correct. There is no way that you can prove it. Nor if I kept a log of all passenger numbers, you lot would all say I made up the numbers. I could say the sky is blue and you would all say I am speculating and it's my opinion. You just don't like me and my opinions or experiences because it doesn't add up to your ideology that D&G do no wrong and are doing the best they can in their situation. I speak up about dismal bus operators and the poor things which happen in the industry and you lot prefer to cheerlead and fanboy/fangirl/fanthem over buses. I make no apologies for doing so and I will continue to do it. I praise operators where they do good, criticise when they do poorly.
As for your last point. None of you know my experience. Just because I choose not to share it on a public forum, doesn't mean I have no experience. Funny isn't it that you claim I make baseless assumptions and yet you all jump to the conclusion that I have no experience simply because I will call out the wrongdoings of the industry rather than sit back and put up with the shoddy services being provided by a number of bus operators. Maybe if you don't like my comments, you should scroll past!
I don't think people are here to 'defame' you as you've put it. This is a public forum and we're having a discussion. I wouidn't expect people to agree with everything that is said. You come across as passionate about public transport, and I feel passion is important as the industry faces some pretty challenging times. I don't know TheGrandWazoo's industry background but like me it's clear he has knowledge of how the industry works. I feel able to let some light in on 'how things work' thanks to 19 years of experience, none of which is wanted by the present day industry. Their loss. I just drive these days, much less aggravation. Am I missing out by being in the office - I'm pretty sure not. When I have the capital open to me I shall be able to acquire a few minibuses (of the sliding door Ford Transit variety) and scratch a living doing special needs school transport.
The 'defame' comment wasn't aimed at yourself as you have been fair. It was specifically in reply to TGW and it seems they misquoted as it was aimed at someone else.
You seem surprised D&G are getting £1.5m from Cheshire East on tenders. I'm not. That's the business they're in. The work isn't handed to them on a plate, it's tendered for.
I gave them figures just to highlight the amount they get from one council for tenders. It's easy to run a business where you get pumped with a huge amount of public money and don't take many commercial risks. As for them tendering, I agree they tender but given the lack of viable competition, the work is kind of given to them. Little Gem only got the 391/392 as Cheshire East begged them to bid else that would have been D&G. Congleton Circulars I presume Hollinshead must have put in the best bid. Either that or Cheshire East couldn't give another all day contract to D&G. Arriva only has/had the evening tenders.
I can see from D&G's mobile friendly website (where I'm clicking less than four times for ANY information, so a big tick from grumpy middle aged me for something that's user friendly) that D&G seem very fond of de-minimis tenders. That's a service which isn't put out to tender, as it's below £25,000 per annum. Things like evenings and Sunday workings? They could just 'do the minimum' and provide a 7am-7pm service six days a week but they're looking to provide some level of service on these new routes, and they're also going out for midlife buses, which will presumably have 29 seats like much of their existing fleet.
It is somewhat easy to get information but not very appealing.
Your comment on D&G de-minims tenders, right now (pre April 2023 expansion), they don't seem to have them in Cheshire. In Cheshire, they run 24 routes available to the public. Of which, the 8, 12, 82 and 85 are commercial. The 94 may be commercial, I am not sure. Everything else is 100% funded in some way (Whether that be school, tendered or Handforth free bus). I can't find any note from Cheshire West or Cheshire East about them providing deminims funding to D&G.
As for 'do the minimum' with the new network, Arriva didn't run much after 7pm anyway other than the 84 commercially, the X31, 37 and 38 evenings are tendered. D&G, to their credit, did register a like for like timetable on the 31, 37 and 38 which I do commend them on and I have previously commended D&G on rerouting the 31 and 37 to serve parts of Winsford which I think will make a big difference to Winsford residents. The rest of the network isn't as good though but I appreciate that they have to use their resources to cover the very core routes over the busiest times and so it's difficult to cricitise them too much for that. The only thing that I do think they should do is easy quick wins such as extending the morning and evening 82s to cover Rudheath to provide a better service there at minimal cost (Minimal cost in comparison to a full takeover of services. The cost being around 15 minutes extra on a driver duty to cover Rudheath then return to the depot). Mon-Fri Rudheath will finish 80 minutes earlier but the same start time (reduced frequency for much of the day though). Saturdays though, the operational hours drop from 06:00-20:00 down to 08:30-17:30. That is a huge drop and for anyone who works earlier on Saturdays, tough luck, no travel for you. At low cost and without extra buses, you could provide a better service.
Not new, but the first chunk of depreciation has been taken care of by the first operator of the bus. They'll be able to operate to a lower level of profit with things like this, unlike Arriva there won't be masters in Berlin who'll want money sent over. D&G have been in business since 1998, which suggests something about how right they'll have got things. You wouldn't still be in business if you weren't making money. It isn't in D&G's interests to offer these shoulder services alongside the main daytime service - drivers don't want to work evenings and Sundays. It'd be easier for them to resource a 5 day a week, 12 hour spreadover shift than to offer anything on a weekend. I guess that'd be easier to knock and would fit this 'they do the bare minimum' perception you have. Could you realistically see these routes being run with zero emission vehicles in 15 years time? I'd argue the capital cost of having the same sized buses would be enough to put an end to the services for good as the working life of the bus has been halved (unless someone comes up with battery recycling)
I certainly am not campaigning for D&G to start running zero emission buses. Just vehicles with a small bit of comfort, in a reasonable state of repair, and actually look and feel good to be on. A number of firms manage to do that with their vehicles but D&G seem to be unable to do this despite having the same buses. There is just no love, no care and no intent on growing patronage, they just expect people to use the buses because they are there or for the majority of routes, they don't care as they get paid the same amount anyway. They are far from the only company doing things this way but all it does it push the idea that they don't want
I'd want to know about those never ending traffic lights which blight a town and completely hammer the reliability of the bus network. I wouldn't want my drivers to have to speed around to make up time, I don't practice speedy driving myself so I'd be devising timetables which are operable and allow the driver to drive safely and have proper recovery time.
D&G do timetables where they look at what is a normal travel time and then increase that by around 30% for padding. Doesn't matter if buses are always early and have to sit waiting, that doesn't matter, they'd rather people be sat around than on the move. The 82 has common points where unless the driver is really slow or it's extremely bad traffic, the bus will always sit and wait time. From Northwich, it's Hartford, Kelsall. From Chester it's Vicars Cross. The 88 is quite bad as well at Hale Barns and Wilmslow but D&G insist on having the slowest journey times in the north west. There has to be balance between reliability and fast journey times. Go too far either way, you will upset people. Whether that be upset knowing that your journey could be 15% quicker if padding was removed from the timetable, or upset that the bus is always late. It takes time and skill to master it and then temporary roadworks get thrown up haha. You'll never win but D&G take it to an extreme and refuse to adapt. They use some drivers going stupidly slow (to save them sitting around everywhere) as justification taht
My old school methods would extend to school traffic too - for me that's a solid base of revenue for 190 days of the year and I can sell annual passes for use on the service. Those passes would pay for the main operational costs of the bus, the driver's wages, the fuel, the wear and tear etc. My timetable would take account of that revenue stream. It might be something that isn't clockface but it'll get the customers where they need to be.
That way of working would work well for Cheshire Easts independents. D&G could struggle slightly with that approach though as their vehicles are smaller and you don't get many solos or mini E200s going to do the school run these days and to adjust vehicle workings means larger buses on routes which don't need it and smaller buses on routes which need more capacity. This already happens on the Handforth Dean free buses as they benefit from a full length, Streetlite due to the fact this bus works with the John Dene College run. This is one of the downfalls of Cheshire East though, they keep schools and service separate. I think a good number of schools are commercial too in Cheshire East and so D&G leave schools to the other firms who only do schools and they focus on local service. Albeit, they have lost a revenue stream because the school kids go on dedicated services.
I don't see any other operators besides D&G coming in to replace Arriva's services. So, whilst they might have their own unique issues, why not applaud them for going shopping for buses. recruiting drivers and trying to provide some sort of service by way of replacement? The alternatives would be no bus at all, and I'd argue that'd do nothing to help the cause of public transport in the area they're operating in if the end game was to put more cars onto the road.
I think it's good to see them taking on the work and I hope it can be made a success but I've seen D&G take on enough routes over time to see that unless they change their ways, this expansion will not go well. We could look at the 82 for example where it started good with route branded buses and leaflets and a bit of promotion and now it's treated no differently to the Handforth Dean free bus. Just no love for the routes and no care to encourage people onboard. You could ask them 'why should I use your bus rather than drive' and they wouldn't have a clue how to reply or would reply 'We don't mind, make your own choice'. It's that sort of firm. Instead they should be saying 'Because we are better, comfier' and other marketing stuff which sounds good (this is an example before people jump on it).
