Cheshire Bus News (was East Cheshire Bus News)

[peters]

A wait of 1hr 30 minutes, so very slightly increas3d frequency?

That was a typo sorry. The bus after the 15:45 is the 18:15 meaning it's a 2hr30 gap instead of a 2hr gap.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm actually proposing a total of 5/6 buses, opposed to the current arrangement. 4 for an hourly Macclesfield to Altrincham which would retain the cross-Knutsford link for the hospital and then 1/2 for Northwich & Warrington. The 89 could run to a 2 hourly frequency with a single bus and I think the intention for the 47 is that it's an off-peak only service which a driver and bus could be used on before a morning and afternoon school run. However, at the moment it seems the 47 is 3 different buses and drivers. My idea would be 2 buses start on the day on the combined route, let's call it the 87, one comes off to do a school run, it goes back on the 87, then there's 2 buses on the route until mid-afternoon, again ones comes off for a school run, then the second goes back on the 87 for the evening peak, then the service stops after the evening peak.

I think there's also an Over Peover to Knutsford Academy school bus, so a better Macclesfield to Knutsford service could eliminate the need for that additional school service.

5/6 buses... Good luck getting CEC to agree to that. IF they thought they could get away with it, they would be reducing the number of buses out. CEC will never, ever spend a penny more than they have to on supporting buses.

The 47 works as it does because that is WOBs operational style. Cross networking. Interwork every possible route to keep layover to a minimum. The 47 doesn't carry enough passengers to justify an extra trip so they run the bare minimum and to then save that bus being say in the interchange, they cross network everything. Even on routes which could just go around and around all day or any sort of logical route grouping, the buses do everything.

As for school buses, I do agree with you but that sort of working requires someone to sit in an office, do some work and put effort in to make timetable work. Not sure if you've seen CEC before but that is way beyond their capabilities and D&G similarly don't want to put effort into the services so that they can work schools into normal services. This is probably down to the fact D&G don't like schools (the only school services which they do are part of larger tenders or right now, it's a dupe which wouldn't be needed as passengers would be using the normal service bus.

What annoys me is when they decrease the frequency at peak times. Take the Knutsford departures from Macclesfield, it's normally 2 hours between buses but if you don't make the 16:45 departure, you have to wait until 18:15.

If there is that large of a gap, obviously it doesn't work so well but for an hourly service, it does work as long as it's staggered so say 1h 5 min or 1h 10 min gaps. A large jump from 1h to 1h 30 isn't very good.

 

[peters]

The 47 works as it does because that is WOBs operational style. Cross networking. Interwork every possible route to keep layover to a minimum. The 47 doesn't carry enough passengers to justify an extra trip so they run the bare minimum and to then save that bus being say in the interchange, they cross network everything. Even on routes which could just go around and around all day or any sort of logical route grouping, the buses do everything.

The 47 is a token service to compensate for the loss of the Warrington Coachways Altrincham to Warrington via High Legh service and the Knutsford to Altrincham part of the 289. The 47 is supposed to connect with CAT5 services at Lymm so that Altrincham journeys are still possible but I'm not sure if it currently does with the COVID timetables.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread for a bus route to be successful it needs to have attractive timings to those who would pay to travel and who would travel everyday. The 47 is no good for the majority of workers and no good for school or college pupils, so any regular passengers are pass holders.

Even for leisure travel the benefits of the 47 at its current frequency are questionable. Tatton Park is the big tourist attractions near the route and Warrington is a large town so there's lot of potential there but to use the 47 for that journey it requires travelling at specific times and changing at Lymm, so it'd be far easier to visit Dunham Massey instead on the CAT5. On the other hand Warrington is a shopping destination and Knutsford doesn't have a lot of shops, you can make such a journey but only if you travel out at 09:40 on a weekday, spend 3 hours in Warrington and then travel back. Hardly the most attractive option and it doesn't allow for older teenagers who like to travel with their mates not their parents and are at school on weekdays.

 

[markymark2000]

The 47 is a token service to compensate for the loss of the Warrington Coachways Altrincham to Warrington via High Legh service and the Knutsford to Altrincham part of the 289. The 47 is supposed to connect with CAT5 services at Lymm so that Altrincham journeys are still possible but I'm not sure if it currently does with the COVID timetables.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread for a bus route to be successful it needs to have attractive timings to those who would pay to travel and who would travel everyday. The 47 is no good for the majority of workers and no good for school or college pupils, so any regular passengers are pass holders.

Even for leisure travel the benefits of the 47 at its current frequency are questionable. Tatton Park is the big tourist attractions near the route and Warrington is a large town so there's lot of potential there but to use the 47 for that journey it requires travelling at specific times and changing at Lymm, so it'd be far easier to visit Dunham Massey instead on the CAT5. On the other hand Warrington is a shopping destination and Knutsford doesn't have a lot of shops, you can make such a journey but only if you travel out at 09:40 on a weekday, spend 3 hours in Warrington and then travel back. Hardly the most attractive option and it doesn't allow for older teenagers who like to travel with their mates not their parents and are at school on weekdays.

If no one used the 47 though now, there is no business case for expansion and as backwards as that may seem, it's a huge financial risk to expand the service based on the hope that people start using the service.

There isn't really a cheap option to expand the 47 either since even the CAT services are timed around and links with Lymm High services.

The only cheap way of getting more 47 trips would be some sort of linking it into the CAT services but an extension to the 6, 7 or 8 would all mean journeys would be 10 minutes longer than current from High Legh and Knutsford (of which, 7 minutes of that is due to the meandering around Centre Park and Bank Quay station).

I think even when you have got a service sorted, you need to look at the operator. Even Warringtons own residents won't use WOB unless they absolutely have to because it's so expensive. If you go to Warrington, you will see that most of the bus users are pass holders (who get free travel) or kids (who have touch and go passes paid for by the schools/colleges/council). There aren't many fare payers. Commuters tend not to be pass holders or kids and so the fares will be the biggest deterrant to people using the service.

 

[peters]

I think even when you have got a service sorted, you need to look at the operator. Even Warringtons own residents won't use WOB unless they absolutely have to because it's so expensive. If you go to Warrington, you will see that most of the bus users are pass holders (who get free travel) or kids (who have touch and go passes paid for by the schools/colleges/council). There aren't many fare payers. Commuters tend not to be pass holders or kids and so the fares will be the biggest deterrant to people using the service.

This is where a Saturday service is relevant. Taking a car into either Dunham Massey is £7 plus your petrol costs, for those already holding a WOB season ticket and living on their network, there's no additional charge to either travel or enter the site. Using their app a weekly season ticket is £23, if you're going to go to Dunham Massey anyway then it's only £16 extra for your weekly commute, presuming you can use a WOB service for both. Tatton Park works on the same basis for car/foot entry but there's no Saturday 47 bus.

Whether season tickets are good value will depend where you live and where you are travelling to. I'd suggest their weekly ticket is excellent value if you travel from Northwich or Altrincham to Warrington, modern buses with wi-fi for a fraction of the cost of what you pay to travel on a train over 35 years old between Northwich and Altrincham. The train may be faster but that speed advantage doesn't justify the cost being around twice as much.

it's a huge financial risk to expand the service based on the hope that people start using the service.

Yet without better public transport there's going to be issues getting the high number of unemployed people back to work again and that will cost a lot in the amount of benefits paid out. The only difference is which pot of money raised through taxes/NI is used to pay for it.

The only cheap way of getting more 47 trips would be some sort of linking it into the CAT services but an extension to the 6, 7 or 8 would all mean journeys would be 10 minutes longer than current from High Legh and Knutsford (of which, 7 minutes of that is due to the meandering around Centre Park and Bank Quay station).

Presumably part of the reason for the different 47 route is to serve parts of Thelwall and Latchford not served by the CAT routes. I think the idea of the CAT routes is Stockton Heath to Warrington every 10 minutes using high standard buses.

 

[markymark2000]

This is where a Saturday service is relevant. Taking a car into either Dunham Massey is £7 plus your petrol costs, for those already holding a WOB season ticket and living on their network, there's no additional charge to either travel or enter the site. Using their app a weekly season ticket is £23, if you're going to go to Dunham Massey anyway then it's only £16 extra for your weekly commute, presuming you can use a WOB service for both. Tatton Park works on the same basis for car/foot entry but there's no Saturday 47 bus.

Whether season tickets are good value will depend where you live and where you are travelling to. I'd suggest their weekly ticket is excellent value if you travel from Northwich or Altrincham to Warrington, modern buses with wi-fi for a fraction of the cost of what you pay to travel on a train over 35 years old between Northwich and Altrincham. The train may be faster but that speed advantage doesn't justify the cost being around twice as much.

Stagecoach Manchester, NCTX, Reading Buses? All cheaper and have much more frequent services with wifi and new buses. WOB is a rip off and locals say as much. Your logic on weekly tickets may not add up either since it depends on how WOB distributes any weekly ticket revenue. Whether they are like Arriva and don't cross subsidise, Like Stagecoach and cross subsidise within the route groups or like independents and will run some routes at a complete loss subsidised by a few highly profitable trip (but I don't think WOB has many of those, it's revenue comes mostly from contracts and passes).

Tatton Park/Dunham Massey may well do well at some select times but it's still a huge risk to start that up.

Yet without better public transport there's going to be issues getting the high number of unemployed people back to work again and that will cost a lot in the amount of benefits paid out. The only difference is which pot of money raised through taxes/NI is used to pay for it.

Hence the catch 22 which we are in now. You can't encourage people onto buses that quickly and so it's a lot of long term losses to make any sort of money. Bus companies don't like that though. they want profits from about 4 weeks in and if there isn't profit, it starts being cut back and messed around with. No one can just fund a bus because there may be some people wanting to make a journey. Any bus service has to be based of evidence that there would be use. While yes I think the Warrington to Knutsford link would be of use, using the 47 will not be that service unless it has substantial funding. The compromise for it would be that the service has to be linked into another route somehow, somewhere for it to be ran anywhere near viably. CAT 6 would be about 55 mins end to end. CAT 7/8 would be 52 mins end to end. Compare that to the 47s current time of 40 minutes. It won't make people too happy but it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than the 47.


CAT = Warringtons Own Buses Cheshire Cat routes. Routes are named 'CAT' followed by the route number
WOB = Warringtons Own Buses

 

[GusB]

It appears to be raining CATS and WOBS!

Please do not assume that everyone reading the thread has local knowledge and remember to define your acronyms and abbreviations the first time they are used in a post.

 

[daodao]

It appears to be raining CATS and WOBS!

Please do not assume that everyone reading the thread has local knowledge and remember to define your acronyms and abbreviations the first time they are used in a post.

CAT5 and CAT5A are the official numbers (names) of the bus services run by Warrington's Own Buses (WOB, the new name for Warrington Borough Transport) for their services between Altrincham and Warrington. CAT is the prefix used by WOB for many of their routes running into historic Cheshire; the brand name is the Cheshire Cat.

Route CAT5 used to run very close to where I live, but due to issues relating to the narrowness of Woodhouse Lane in Dunham and the canal bridge there, has been diverted away from Dunham and Bowdon since mid December 2020 and no longer serves the Dunham Massey Estate. This bus route now runs via Sinderland Lane/Road (like route CAT5A) between Warburton and Altrincham. Neither of these bus routes go through East Cheshire, so discussion of them is strictly off topic. The only WOB route to enter East Cheshire is the infrequent route 47 from Warrington to High Legh and Knutsford, which curiously is not branded CAT47.

 

[peters]

The 47 doesn't go via Stockton Heath which is probably what it isn't a CAT branded route. The Cheshire CAT branded vehicles all reference the 10 minute frequency between Stockton Heath and Warrington. CAT means the small furry mammal that purrs in this context and the vehicles branded for these routes have a ginger cat incorporated into the livery. The Cheshire Cat is a character from Alice in Wonderland if anyone didn't know.

I think there's two issues with @markymark2000's proposal of extending one of the other CAT branded routes to Knutsford. Firstly, the number of Cheshire CAT branded vehicles the operator has. While they have a few others of the same type in Warrington's Own Buses branding, extending services to Knutsford is likely to increase the chance of lower standard buses appearing on CAT routes. Unless the operator buys some more buses of the same standard but then that isn't the cheap option.

Secondly, I think we all agree that an enhanced Warrington to Knutsford wouldn't be commercial. That means it needs to go out to tender and different operators will be allowed to submit different ideas.

 

[markymark2000]

I think there's two issues with @markymark2000's proposal of extending one of the other CAT branded routes to Knutsford. Firstly, the number of Cheshire CAT branded vehicles the operator has. While they have a few others of the same type in Warrington's Own Buses branding, extending services to Knutsford is likely to increase the chance of lower standard buses appearing on CAT routes. Unless the operator buys some more buses of the same standard but then that isn't the cheap option.

That doesn't really mean anything. Just look at their allocations, CAT branded bused don't always end up on CAT routes. The CAT Services are often ran with other buses. Infact, there are 3 normal E200s out on the CAT routes today. They may well aim for the branded buses to be on the right route but it almost never happens. With the way Warrington do their duties as well, you may not even need any extra buses. They do a lot of cross networking and they have buses sat around the interchange most of the time.

Secondly, I think we all agree that an enhanced Warrington to Knutsford wouldn't be commercial. That means it needs to go out to tender and different operators will be allowed to submit different ideas.

The losses of extending one of the CAT routes would be lower than the losses of the outright 47. Yes operators can submit ideas but often councils don't like ideas which are wildly different to the tender.

 

[_toommm_]

The thing that annoys me about CEC is big places like Sandbach are practically cut off on Sundays. There’s one train an hour only, and Sandbach station is a half hour walk from Sandbach itself, and there’s no buses on a Sunday at all

 

[peters]

The thing that annoys me about CEC is big places like Sandbach are practically cut off on Sundays. There’s one train an hour only, and Sandbach station is a half hour walk from Sandbach itself, and there’s no buses on a Sunday at all

I think Cheshire East have withdrawn all Sunday contracted bus services. At least Sandbach station has a train every hour, Poynton and Congleton have gaps of upto 3 hours between trains on Sunday!

 

[Redmike]

The thing that annoys me about CEC is big places like Sandbach are practically cut off on Sundays. There’s one train an hour only, and Sandbach station is a half hour walk from Sandbach itself, and there’s no buses on a Sunday at all

I wasn’t aware that the 38 Sunday service had been withdrawn. Is that a temporary Covid issue or permanent?

 

[_toommm_]

I wasn’t aware that the 38 Sunday service had been withdrawn. Is that a temporary Covid issue or permanent?

I’ve only been working in Sandbach since the second lockdown, but there’s not been a Sunday service for all of that time.

 

[Llandudno]

I think Cheshire East have withdrawn all Sunday contracted bus services. At least Sandbach station has a train every hour, Poynton and Congleton have gaps of upto 3 hours between trains on Sunday!

At least Sandbach, Poynton and Congleton have railway stations.

Middlewich 13000 population does not have a railway station, but does it have a Sunday bus service?
if not, is this one of the largest towns in the country without one?

 

[_toommm_]

At least Sandbach, Poynton and Congleton have railway stations.

Middlewich 13000 population does not have a railway station, but does it have a Sunday bus service?
if not, is this one of the largest towns in the country without one?

The only buses I know in Middlewich is the 37 from Winsford to Crewe which doesn’t run on Sundays, and the 42 which doesn’t appear to.

 

[Simon75]

The thing that annoys me about CEC is big places like Sandbach are practically cut off on Sundays. There’s one train an hour only, and Sandbach station is a half hour walk from Sandbach itself, and there’s no buses on a Sunday at all

58 Buxton to Macclesfield (Sunday's) High Peak (commercial ??)
38 Crewe to Macclesfield and 5 Weston/Upton Priory (Macclesfield local) were commercial (D&G)
Both withdrawn Sunday's

So Sanbach (18,000 population)
Congleton 26,000
Macclesfield 51,000

Noe no longer Have no Sunday service

 

[peters]

At least Sandbach, Poynton and Congleton have railway stations.

Middlewich 13000 population does not have a railway station, but does it have a Sunday bus service?
if not, is this one of the largest towns in the country without one?

The only buses I know in Middlewich is the 37 from Winsford to Crewe which doesn’t run on Sundays, and the 42 which doesn’t appear to.

Middlewich should have a 30 Northwich to Shavington service on Sundays, funded through a Better Buses scheme, along with some other improvements. However, due to COVID the funding from that scheme was diverted to keep existing services running like the 130 that was previously commercial.

Yes operators can submit ideas but often councils don't like ideas which are wildly different to the tender.

I've asked some questions regarding this and it seems in the past Warrington Borough Transport got contracted routes outside the Warrington borough by tagging the contracted services onto existing services. For instance, they had won tenders to provide services from Lach Dennis to Northwich and Lower Peover to Knutsford but instead of running those routes as separate services they ran some Northwich to Lach Dennis to Lower Peover to Knutsford to Warrington journeys. I'm told with Warrington becoming independent from Cheshire County Council in the mid-90s these kind of proposals from a council owned operator became less favourable, as Cheshire County Council felt Warrington Borough Transport weren't offering good value for money, which is why such routes got broken up when they were re-tendered.

 

[Martin1988]

Would I be right in thinking the Sunday 38 got withdrawn in March 2020 just before the original lockdown?

I see First Potteries are making some timetable changes from next week including the 2030 Hanley to Radway Green journey returning on Monday to Saturday evenings

 

[peters]

Updates on D&G website:

130

From 11th April weekday buses will be extended north of Handforth to serve Manchester Airport, Wythenshawe and Wythenshawe Hospital. This is an experimental joint venture between D&G Bus and Cheshire East Council to offer improved links to bus and tram services into Manchester.

I notice this does not include a pre-9am arrival in Wythenshawe.

88/89

Service 88 will have minor timetable changes at peak times.
Service 89 will be reduced on weekday afternoons.

Service 89 reduction seems to be so a vehicle can be taken off the 88/89 workings to run the afternoon 188 school service. 'Minor changes at peak times' seems to refer to the 08:05 Altrincham to Knutsford running 25 minutes later and some of the afternoon journeys between Macclesfield and Knutsford being 60 minutes later, an usual definition of 'minor'!

D&G website also now says 94 and 109 will operate on Good Friday, apart from those two services they will be running a Sunday service in Cheshire on Good Friday (meaning no service on most routes.)

 

[Navigation Roa]

With the deregulation announcement for Greater Manchester today. I wonder if any services will run into Cheshire east more frequently. I know Burnham was keen on the train/tram from wilmslow under TFGM banner. What does this news mean for Cheshire east?

 

[Glenn1969]

I thought Burnham wanted Franchising which is the opposite of deregulation. What changed today?

 

[Navigation Roa]

My apologies I meant franchising I don’t know why I’ve typed deregulation!

 

[Llandudno]

With the deregulation announcement for Greater Manchester today. I wonder if any services will run into Cheshire east more frequently. I know Burnham was keen on the train/tram from wilmslow under TFGM banner. What does this news mean for Cheshire east?

I doubt Burnham will have any interest in buses serving Cheshire East, why would he want to spend Greater Manchester rate payers money for the benefit of Tory Cheshire residents?

 

[Navigation Roa]

I’m thinking more from a connectivity point of view for his rate payers rather than those on this side of the fence

 

[peters]

I doubt Burnham will have any interest in buses serving Cheshire East, why would he want to spend Greater Manchester rate payers money for the benefit of Tory Cheshire residents?

You do realise the Tories lost control of Cheshire East council at the last election and it's currently run by a Labour-Independent coalition. Even places like Alderley Edge snubbed the Conservative candidate.


Your reasoning presumes there's no benefit to Greater Manchester residents of cross-border services. Yet the ICO (in Wilmslow), AstraZeneca (in Nether Alderley) and Barclays (in Over Peover) all employ residents of Greater Manchester in significant numbers. It was also claimed when the pandemic first hit that the COVID infection rate was high in places like Handforth and Alderley Edge due to a lot of care workers travelling to those places from parts of Greater Manchester with a high infection rate. I hope Mr Burnham cares about good suitable jobs for Greater Manchester residents opposed to them any job within the Greater Manchester boundary.

 

[markymark2000]

I think the only possible service which could benefit would be the 42B/C or possibly they would be childish and cut all the services at Cheadle. Otherwise, not many routes run primerily from Manchester to Cheshire East, it's mostly the other way around 88, 130, 391/2 mostly in Cheshire East and just go to Manchester for the connectivity.

 

[peters]

Appearing in recent bus registrations:

PC1046654/2DAVID ANTHONY HATTON, 56 LOCKERBIE CLOSE, WARRINGTON, WA2 0LU From: Ye Old No.3 Public House, Little Bollington To: Lymm (Circular) Via: Lymm Name or No.: 191 (Lymm Shopper)Service type: Normal Stopping / Hail & Ride Effective date: 06 April 2021 Other details: Tuesday, Thursday & Friday.

Seems both Cheshire East and Warrington councils don't want people to know about the service as there's no mention of it on either of their sites!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the only possible service which could benefit would be the 42B/C or possibly they would be childish and cut all the services at Cheadle. Otherwise, not many routes run primerily from Manchester to Cheshire East, it's mostly the other way around 88, 130, 391/2 mostly in Cheshire East and just go to Manchester for the connectivity.

Do I take it that the 42C service to Handforth Dean to and from Manchester has not been a success?

You do realise the Tories lost control of Cheshire East council at the last election and it's currently run by a Labour-Independent coalition. Even places like Alderley Edge snubbed the Conservative candidate.

Glad to see that you are on the ball here. Old suppositions die hard. On a recent thread, someone still thought Trafford Council was Conservative run.

 

[peters]

Appearing in recent bus registrations:

PC1046654/2DAVID ANTHONY HATTON, 56 LOCKERBIE CLOSE, WARRINGTON, WA2 0LU From: Ye Old No.3 Public House, Little Bollington To: Lymm (Circular) Via: Lymm Name or No.: 191 (Lymm Shopper)Service type: Normal Stopping / Hail & Ride Effective date: 06 April 2021 Other details: Tuesday, Thursday & Friday.

Seems both Cheshire East and Warrington councils don't want people to know about the service as there's no mention of it on either of their sites!

A timetable for this service has now appeared under the 'Bus Service Changes' on the Cheshire East website but not on the timetables page

https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/pdf/public-transport/lymm-shopper-16.04.2021-timetable.pdf

One observation I've made is the 47 bus does Broomedge to Lymm at 09:54, 12:14 and 14:40 and this new service does Broomedge to Lymm at 10:04 and 11:52 but only on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. That could be better coordinated! Although, it seems the 191 is routed via Sainsbury's on Rush Green Road, which will be an advantage for those wanting to do a supermarket shop.