Chiltern abandoning West Midlands on Sunday

[jimjim]

Morning,

I saw Chiltern were only running Warwick Parkway to London this Sunday and thought it was due to engineering work. However closer inspection shows the line is open and this is an operational decision by Chiltern due to Birmingham City playing at Wembley.

They state that this allows them to run more services and people should either use New St to Euston services or drive to Warwick Parkway, Leamington or Banbury and park and ride. That said they have made the car parks free on Sunday.

I know that services will be busy but can't believe that many people will decide to go to Warwick and instead they will just make New St services even more busy.

Also WMR only run an hourly service to Dorridge and the last departure south from Moor St is 1801. Chilterns decision has completely abandoned the evening service on this line.

How do they get away with this?

 

[Route115?]

When I worked for Chiltern in the 90s they assumed that everyone could drive and had access to a car. Nothing seems to have changed. Accessibility has more than one meaning.

 

[rg177]

I'd understand this approach more if there was some sort of co-ordinated plan between the three TOCs operating Birmingham to London. As it happens it doesn't appear as if West Midlands Trains or Avanti are doing anything different, so you're just moving the problem around.

Usually these planning decisions for large events are based on Postcode data and the like so they know of people's planned travel patterns. For a car owner, I can see the logic in what they're trying to achieve, but otherwise they're just royally shafting people who don't have access to one and live in the Solihull/Dorridge area.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Morning,

I saw Chiltern were only running Warwick Parkway to London this Sunday and thought it was due to engineering work. However closer inspection shows the line is open and this is an operational decision by Chiltern due to Birmingham City playing at Wembley.

They state that this allows them to run more services and people should either use New St to Euston services or drive to Warwick Parkway, Leamington or Banbury and park and ride. That said they have made the car parks free on Sunday.

I know that services will be busy but can't believe that many people will decide to go to Warwick and instead they will just make New St services even more busy.

Also WMR only run an hourly service to Dorridge and the last departure south from Moor St is 1801. Chilterns decision has completely abandoned the evening service on this line.

How do they get away with this?

agree, i find this a very strange decision.

 

[87015]

I'd understand this approach more if there was some sort of co-ordinated plan between the three TOCs operating Birmingham to London. As it happens it doesn't appear as if West Midlands Trains or Avanti are doing anything different, so you're just moving the problem around.

Usually these planning decisions for large events are based on Postcode data and the like so they know of people's planned travel patterns. For a car owner, I can see the logic in what they're trying to achieve, but otherwise they're just royally shafting people who don't have access to one and live in the Solihull/Dorridge area.

Half service (basically) on LNR, late start and reduced frequency with Northampton shut so Chiltern already with lower capacity trains unable to cope with expected passenger numbers without heavy intervention.

 

[Watershed]

Half service (basically) on LNR, late start and reduced frequency with Northampton shut so Chiltern already with lower capacity trains unable to cope with expected passenger numbers without heavy intervention.

That still doesn't justify cutting people in Solihull/Birmingham off from their normal links to London and other intermediate stations. Or, for that matter, making people in Leamington rely on the hourly, heavily overcrowded 4/5-car XC service to Birmingham. And (obviously the main aim) deliberately preventing Birmingham fans from having an easy journey to the stadium.

Chiltern seem to have form for this kind of behaviour. The railway is excellent at moving large numbers of people yet there is no point paying billions in annual subsidy if it simply shuts down as soon as the going gets tough.

In any remotely sensibly run railway, stock would be drafted in from other operators (e.g. those with engineering works going on this weekend) to operate relief services or to allow Chiltern to increase their services to maximum length.

 

[150219]

In any remotely sensibly run railway, stock would be drafted in from other operators (e.g. those with engineering works going on this weekend) to operate relief services or to allow Chiltern to increase their services to maximum length.

You must surely know that it's not as easy as just saying it should be that way.

 

[Watershed]

You must surely know that it's not as easy as just saying it should be that way.

I'm talking about the principle rather than the practicalities.

Of course we don't have a sensibly run railway, so...

 

[Horizon22]

Operationally I can see what they’ve done - running shorter diagrams allows you to run a higher frequency of end-to-end services in a “core” area.

However doing that whilst withdrawing the service from regular passengers doesn’t sit right. I presume they do not have stock or crew availability to do both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That still doesn't justify cutting people in Solihull/Birmingham off from their normal links to London and other intermediate stations. Or, for that matter, making people in Leamington rely on the hourly, heavily overcrowded 4/5-car XC service to Birmingham. And (obviously the main aim) deliberately preventing Birmingham fans from having an easy journey to the stadium.

That isn't what they're doing. What they're doing is operating an intensive service south of Warwick Parkway so as to move more of them on the basis that most will be car owners or can car share, using units/crews that would otherwise run to Brum itself. If anything they're actively seeking to put off their normal Birmingham traffic onto the WCML (or if it's shopping traffic onto Saturday instead), that traffic might not travel in large numbers anyway knowing how bad trains with football fans tend to be as a travel experience.

I'm not sure I agree with it, and I wonder if it breaches their franchise agreement, but you can see their argument.

Chiltern are kind of lumbered with Wembley Stadium station and if they do nothing they would just end up overcrowded. At least unlike some TOCs they don't just ignore major sporting events and hope for the best.

 

[tram21]

At least unlike some TOCs they don't just ignore major sporting events and hope for the best.

EMR... cough cough...

 

[The Planner]

However doing that whilst withdrawing the service from regular passengers doesn’t sit right. I presume they do not have stock or crew availability to do both.

They don't

 

[MarkyT]

Those without access or ability to use a car, heading south out of Brum to Leamington, Banbury etc will be forced to use Cross Country. That sounds like fun on a busy Sunday evening! Oh and lots of W Midlands football fans returning home after a long train journey, attracted by free parking and a very convenient station for the stadium, then ready to hop in their cars on their way home after celebrating or commiserating. What could possibly go wrong? There is BOUND to be some driving under the influence, so I suggest stay well clear of West Midlands roads that evening.

Maybe Chiltern should be obliged to hire in buses to fill the total local service and capacity gap rather than being able to unilaterally just shut up shop early on a Sunday evening, because they're providing the only local rail service after a certain time normally. A requirement to provide a realistic alternative, especially a last one or two northbound for fans who arrive at Warwick too 'emotional' to drive on their return. I expect taxis of all descriptions will be under extreme pressure that night as well.

Edited for clarity.

 

[JW4]

What are their plans on 26th btw, when Villa play Palace?

 

[150219]

I'm talking about the principle rather than the practicalities.

Of course we don't have a sensibly run railway, so...

I'm with you on the principle, definitely.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

What are their plans on 26th btw, when Villa play Palace?

I’m not sure if Chiltern have confirmed plans for the 26th, but Villa will be taking far fewer fans than Birmingham and so it will not be as critical.

 

[birchesgreen]

Blues fans tend to be more south of the city, Villa fans north so maybe Chiltern are thinking this will work out? Seems a dumb idea though...

 

[TH172341]

Stock wise I don't think they are in the greatest situation - two 168s up at Crewe for refurbishment (didn't help obviously with the problems seemingly with 168003 which had to return there recently and only came back into service this week). This is a new approach though - when football teams have played in the past at Wembley from the West Midlands this has not been done. Yet again unfortunately creates a poor impression to potentially infrequent leisure travellers who should be the target market for rail given that is where the growth opportunity is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stock wise I don't think they are in the greatest situation - two 168s up at Crewe for refurbishment (didn't help obviously with the problems seemingly with 168003 which had to return there recently and only came back into service this week). This is a new approach though - when football teams have played in the past at Wembley from the West Midlands this has not been done. Yet again unfortunately creates a poor impression to potentially infrequent leisure travellers who should be the target market for rail given that is where the growth opportunity is.

Trains full and standing with loud, raucous, drunk footy fans also don't give a great impression. It might actually be that putting those occasionals off to a different weekend will prevent repetitional damage.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

It's absolutely wild to me that a company providing a public service can say "It's going to be really busy, so... let's not bother"

 

[Womar]

Stock wise I don't think they are in the greatest situation - two 168s up at Crewe for refurbishment (didn't help obviously with the problems seemingly with 168003 which had to return there recently and only came back into service this week). This is a new approach though - when football teams have played in the past at Wembley from the West Midlands this has not been done. Yet again unfortunately creates a poor impression to potentially infrequent leisure travellers who should be the target market for rail given that is where the growth opportunity is.

I am a city can going to Wembley, the plan was get the first chiltern service at 0946 from Cradley heath .Instead the stock is coming of the depot at stourbridge and running right pass my house ecs to warwick.So I am using national express coach not my preferred option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's absolutely wild to me that a company providing a public service can say "It's going to be really busy, so... let's not bother"

They aren't. They're saying "we could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an adequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, so we'll do the latter".

I don't *necessarily* agree with it, but I think to debate the issues behind it one needs to really understand what it is they're doing and why - and it's not a case of "we can't cope so we'll do nothing at all" - it seems quite thought through.

 

[sheff1]

Because they're providing the only local service after a certain time normally, they ought to have some obligation to the WM passenger authority to provide a realistic alternative

In any sensible country there would be such an obligation.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I’m not sure if Chiltern have confirmed plans for the 26th, but Villa will be taking far fewer fans than Birmingham and so it will not be as critical.

I suspect the 26th will be just as bad, given it's a 1715 kick-off. As such, the absolute earliest finish will be at 1900, which would be too late to catch the 1902 from Marylebone.

On a normal Saturday, there would be a 1932, 2002, 2032, 2102 and 2202 departure from Marylebone.

If the match goes to extra time you're going to have a problem. Doubly so if it also goes to penalties.

 

[physics34]

There is something like a minimum service requirement that every TOC has to adhere too. Unless it's guess they have special agreements in place or something. Sometimes Sunday service level requirements can be quite low.

 

[D1537]

They aren't. They're saying "we could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an adequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, so we'll do the latter".

I don't *necessarily* agree with it, but I think to debate the issues behind it one needs to really understand what it is they're doing and why - and it's not a case of "we can't cope so we'll do nothing at all" - it seems quite thought through.

A cynic would say they don't want the football fans at all, so they're making it so that they have to drive part of the journey ... hoping that many will decide that's too much of a faff, we'll drive the whole way, or to the edge of London for the tube etc.

Contrast and compare with LNER when Newcastle were at Wembley a few weeks ago...

 

[MarkyT]

They aren't. They're saying "we could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an adequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, so we'll do the latter".

I don't *necessarily* agree with it, but I think to debate the issues behind it one needs to really understand what it is they're doing and why - and it's not a case of "we can't cope so we'll do nothing at all" - it seems quite thought through.

At their whim Chiltern are not providing a well established evening local service AT ALL in the west midlands area is what they're doing. If you can't drive or don't have a car available and can't afford a taxi then just get lost seems to be their public facing attitude including to any loyal travellers who might use the route regularly on a sunday. I bet buses along the corridor are also thin on the ground on a Sunday evening. Pure car brain. I fully accept they have major constraints for stock and staff but buses should be available to hire in on a Sunday evening.

A cynic would say they don't want the football fans at all, so they're making it so that they have to drive part of the journey ...hoping that many will decide that's too much of a faff, we'll drive the whole way, or to the edge of London for the tube etc.

I think Chaltern have an attractive product being able to call at Wembley stadium, and many will probably use the free parking facility at Warwick. It's the abandonment of all public transport services north of there after a certain time that is the travesty. Why not make an agreement with the local TOC to run a few later extra Leamington terminators in the paths not used?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A cynic would say they don't want the football fans at all, so they're making it so that they have to drive part of the journey ... hoping that many will decide that's too much of a faff, we'll drive the whole way, or to the edge of London for the tube etc.

If that were so they wouldn't be offering an enhanced service south of Warwick nor free parking there. It might be that this isn't the right thing to do, but I think suggesting it has nefarious intent is well wide of the mark.

Contrast and compare with LNER when Newcastle were at Wembley a few weeks ago...

Would that be the same LNER that just puts "sold out, go away" when all the seats on a given train are taken?

 

[D1537]

If that were so they wouldn't be offering an enhanced service south of Warwick nor free parking there. It might be that this isn't the right thing to do, but I think suggesting it has nefarious intent is well wide of the mark.

Would that be the same LNER that just puts "sold out, go away" when all the seats on a given train are taken?

It would indeed, but they certainly stepped up when required on that occasion. Imagine if they'd said "OK, we'll make the York to King's Cross service more intensive, but to resource that we'll need to cancel everything between York and Newcastle".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Something this significant, withdrawing all services over a portion of their main route, will have been agreed in advance by the DfT. TOCs as a rule can’t pass wind without written permission from the Rail Minister these days so any thoughts that this is Chiltern breaching their Service Commitment or anything like that are off the mark.

Of course it is debatable whether DfT should have agreed to something this drastic, which is where any real criticism should be directed IMO.