Chiltern during LU strike - why leave Network Rail stations unserved?

[Bletchleyite]

Today with the London Underground strike on, Chiltern aren't operating the services via Amersham.

However, there is an Aylesbury via High Wycombe service plus the Risborough shuttles as normal. Despite this, Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Stoke Mandeville, Wendover and Great Missenden, all on Network Rail lines, are totally unserved.

Why does Chiltern not operate a connectional shuttle service on the part of the route unaffected so people can change at Aylesbury for services via Wycombe, and potentially extend the via HW services back to AVP if the diagrams fit? It's not like this would be strike-breaking, because that part of their network has no connection whatsoever with the striking LU workers.

It strikes me that they have taken a lazy option that they need not have taken.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Today with the London Underground strike on, Chiltern aren't operating the services via Amersham.

However, there is an Aylesbury via High Wycombe service plus the Risborough shuttles as normal. Despite this, Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Stoke Mandeville, Wendover and Great Missenden, all on Network Rail lines, are totally unserved.

Why does Chiltern not operate a connectional shuttle service on the part of the route unaffected so people can change at Aylesbury for services via Wycombe, and potentially extend the via HW services back to AVP if the diagrams fit? It's not like this would be strike-breaking, because that part of their network has no connection whatsoever with the striking LU workers.

It strikes me that they have taken a lazy option that they need not have taken.

I suspect as much as anything this will simply have been down to planning resource and just not having enough resource to create another variation of a strike plan.

 

[A0wen]

Today with the London Underground strike on, Chiltern aren't operating the services via Amersham.

However, there is an Aylesbury via High Wycombe service plus the Risborough shuttles as normal. Despite this, Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Stoke Mandeville, Wendover and Great Missenden, all on Network Rail lines, are totally unserved.

Why does Chiltern not operate a connectional shuttle service on the part of the route unaffected so people can change at Aylesbury for services via Wycombe, and potentially extend the via HW services back to AVP if the diagrams fit? It's not like this would be strike-breaking, because that part of their network has no connection whatsoever with the striking LU workers.

It strikes me that they have taken a lazy option that they need not have taken.

Probably because from a journey time perspective sending people from Missenden via Aylesbury would be unattractive ?

Neither Wendover nor Gt Missenden are that busy as stations go. Stoke Mandeville is only a couple of miles from Aylesbury and there are regular buses from Stoke Mandeville to Aylesbury so that's not totally cut off.

 

[Mollman]

Is it down to LU signaling via Harrow-on-the-Hill being unavailable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it down to LU signaling via Harrow-on-the-Hill being unavailable?

That's why Amersham and points south can't be served. It doesn't explain why Chiltern couldn't serve the stations wholly on Network Rail metals with some sort of shuttle connecting at Aylesbury for the service via High Wycombe which is running.

 

[Ju135]

There is a change of signaller just north of Great Missenden (Marylebone North) and just north of Amersham (LUL Amersham) - without Amersham being in operation it's not possible to use the Crossover just south of Great Missenden as there is no way of Marylebone North knowing that the section of line is clear. Hence no shuttle service today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Is there no crossover between there and Aylesbury? Also why is Vale Parkway unserved?

Probably because from a journey time perspective sending people from Missenden via Aylesbury would be unattractive ?

Neither Wendover nor Gt Missenden are that busy as stations go. Stoke Mandeville is only a couple of miles from Aylesbury and there are regular buses from Stoke Mandeville to Aylesbury so that's not totally cut off.

The railway operates lots of services that are unattractive in journey time terms. Should they all be withdrawn? You'd only be left with the WCML, ECML and rump GWML I reckon...

(I don't doubt that most people would probably just drive to Tring if going to London, though. Many do anyway as it's quicker and Euston is better connected).

 

[The Planner]

Thanks. Is there no crossover between there and Aylesbury? Also why is Vale Parkway unserved?

Nope.

 

[12LDA28C]

That's why Amersham and points south can't be served. It doesn't explain why Chiltern couldn't serve the stations wholly on Network Rail metals with some sort of shuttle connecting at Aylesbury for the service via High Wycombe which is running.

It's not possible to signal trains from Great Missenden towards the LU boundary if Amersham box is closed. Given that the section / starting signal at Great Missenden is before the station and the crossover for reversing trains is after, that signal cannot be cleared and would have to be passed at danger, meaning Pilotman operation would have to be brought in.

That said, I believe that could have been done - maybe nobody from NR was available (usually a local MOM or similar)

 

[Trainbike46]

Probably because from a journey time perspective sending people from Missenden via Aylesbury would be unattractive ?

Journey time compared to what? compared to the normal timetable, sure. But compared to the service they are operating this certainly isn't quicker, a detoured service is much better than no service

 

[12LDA28C]

Journey time compared to what? compared to the normal timetable, sure. But compared to the service they are operating this certainly isn't quicker, a detoured service is much better than no service

As has been explained, this was not possible for the reason given.

 

[Trainbike46]

As has been explained, this was not possible for the reason given.

And the signalling reason makes sense. The point about non-competitve journey time was clearly nonsense

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the signalling reason makes sense. The point about non-competitve journey time was clearly nonsense

Agreed.

How about Vale Parkway? Is there a good reason that was left unserved rather than operating a simple shuttle between there and Aylesbury timed to meet the via HW train?

 

[12LDA28C]

Agreed.

How about Vale Parkway? Is there a good reason that was left unserved rather than operating a simple shuttle between there and Aylesbury timed to meet the via HW train?

If there is I'm not aware of it. Don't forget that the Aylesbury service via HW could potentially have been extended to Aylesbury Vale Parkway to remove the need to change trains, as has been the case on previous occasions

 

[sammyg901]

I don't recall the exact details but this is usually done during LUL strikes - extensions to AVP of via HW / trains and a shuttle for Great Missenden, including a peak Great Missenden to Princes Risborough service! As you say, unlikely anyone would go to London that way but there is a not insignificant local flow for schools and towards Aylesbury that was left unserved today. There were a couple of extra workings from Aylesbury via HW to Marylebone and the usual loco hauled 0739 from Princes Risborough started back from Aylesbury (presumably using spare 165 stock)

To add to the curiosity, tomorrow there are some early London services running from Aylesbury Vale Parkway via HW and a pair of "shuttle" workings to/from Great Missenden around school time

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't recall the exact details but this is usually done during LUL strikes - extensions to AVP of via HW / trains and a shuttle for Great Missenden, including a peak Great Missenden to Princes Risborough service! As you say, unlikely anyone would go to London that way but there is a not insignificant local flow for schools and towards Aylesbury that was left unserved today. There were a couple of extra workings from Aylesbury via HW to Marylebone and the usual loco hauled 0739 from Princes Risborough started back from Aylesbury (presumably using spare 165 stock)

To add to the curiosity, tomorrow there are some early London services running from Aylesbury Vale Parkway via HW and a pair of "shuttle" workings to/from Great Missenden around school time

Scroll up for the reason why Great Missenden shuttles could not run today, this has already been explained

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scroll up for the reason why Great Missenden shuttles could not run today, this has already been explained

But not the reason why Aylesbury Vale Parkway was unserved. It is, for the unfamiliar, north of Aylesbury.

 

[sammyg901]

Scroll up for the reason why Great Missenden shuttles could not run today, this has already been explained

Yes I saw. Was sharing that in the past a service has been operated despite a LUL strike, so today was unusual, both in nothing to Great Missenden + nothing to Aylesbury Vale Parkway

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes I saw. Was sharing that in the past a service has been operated despite a LUL strike, so today was unusual, both in nothing to Great Missenden + nothing to Aylesbury Vale Parkway

Indeed. Not sure why today was different in that respect although as regards AVP, possibly for the reason below

But not the reason why Aylesbury Vale Parkway was unserved. It is, for the unfamiliar, north of Aylesbury.

I can only assume Chiltern wanted to keep to the advertised weekday timetable on the route via HW (with some additionals) which does not allow for trains to run through to Aylesbury Vale Parkway and back in the time usually given for turn round at Aylesbury, particularly as all trains coming into Aylesbury from the HW direction are currently subject to a few minutes' delay.

That said, an Aylesbury - AVP shuttle could have run but would have been unlikely to connect out of and into services from Aylesbury to London without a total recast of the timetable.

 

[45107]

Could it possibly be that todays plan was originally drawn up on back of the (cancelled) RMT on Wednesday and the resulting late start to services ?
it may been decided that with a later start, operating a shuttle would be a challenge ?
(I don’t know the geography of Chiltern operations that interface with LUL nor where crew/units normally start/finish)

 

[12LDA28C]

Could it possibly be that todays plan was originally drawn up on back of the (cancelled) RMT on Wednesday and the resulting late start to services ?
it may been decided that with a later start, operating a shuttle would be a challenge ?
(I don’t know the geography of Chiltern operations that interface with LUL nor where crew/units normally start/finish)

That *may* have been an issue at the start of the day but wouldn't have been a problem any time from the end of the morning peak onwards. In any case the plan was amended for today after the strike was cancelled and drivers today were booking on at their normal times of 0420 onwards.

 

[sammyg901]

Indeed. Not sure why today was different in that respect although as regards AVP, possibly for the reason below



I can only assume Chiltern wanted to keep to the advertised weekday timetable on the route via HW (with some additionals) which does not allow for trains to run through to Aylesbury Vale Parkway and back in the time usually given for turn round at Aylesbury, particularly as all trains coming into Aylesbury from the HW direction are currently subject to a few minutes' delay.

That said, an Aylesbury - AVP shuttle could have run but would have been unlikely to connect out of and into services from Aylesbury to London without a total recast of the timetable.

Yes, the off peak service usual timetabled Marylebone-Aylesbury via HW couldn't extend back to/from AVP, there isn't time. But to be honest I doubt there is significant passenger demand there at these times. IIRC it's only the additionals that are planned from AVP during past LUL strikes.

That said, it isn't a hugely busy station still, anyone driving could just go to Aylesbury and I imagine most people like me wouldn't travel to London if the tube wasn't running anyway, so it's likely a non issue in reality. The bigger issue is the local flow which is addressed tomorrow with the ~8am Great Missenden shuttles

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, an Aylesbury - AVP shuttle could have run but would have been unlikely to connect out of and into services from Aylesbury to London without a total recast of the timetable.

Aylesbury has 3 platforms. They'll have needed 1 today for the roughly hourly via HW service in operation.

AVP to AYS takes 6 minutes.

The off peak pattern was *roughly* xx20 in, xx32 out, varying by a minute here or there. Indeed not enough to go to Parkway and back.

Strikes me that the following would certainly be possible with one 2-car unit and a couple of driver shifts:

AVP depart xx19
AYS arrive xx25

AYS depart xx30
AVP arrive xx36

Then a long tea break until the next hour!

In hours with a freight path, run it back to Aylesbury to get out of the way then back to AVP again.

I suppose to be fair most people would just have driven to AYS instead, and that'd be a reason not to bother. But if staff were spare (as I guess they would be with a whole line not operating) then it'd not be an expensive thing to do. And if you use that argument then you question why it opened at all!

 

[12LDA28C]

Aylesbury has 3 platforms. They'll have needed 1 today for the roughly hourly via HW service in operation.

AVP to AYS takes 6 minutes.

The off peak pattern was *roughly* xx20 in, xx32 out, varying by a minute here or there. Indeed not enough to go to Parkway and back.

Strikes me that the following would certainly be possible with one 2-car unit and a couple of driver shifts:

AVP depart xx19
AYS arrive xx25

AYS depart xx30
AVP arrive xx36

Then a long tea break until the next hour!

In hours with a freight path, run it back to Aylesbury to get out of the way then back to AVP again.

I suppose to be fair most people would just have driven to AYS instead, and that'd be a reason not to bother. But if staff were spare (as I guess they would be with a whole line not operating) then it'd not be an expensive thing to do. And if you use that argument then you question why it opened at all!

Indeed, although if you know the station layout at Aylesbury, it's not quite as simple as it might appear.

Only Platform 2 allows for running to/from both High Wycombe and Aylesbury Vale Parkway so any through running would have to use that platform. Of course the AVP shuttle could use Platform 3 but then anyone wanting to travel from AVP to Marylebone would then have to cross the footbridge at Aylesbury from Platform 3 to Platform 1. Using Platform 2 for the AVP shuttles would be a good option for a cross-platform transfer to Platform 1 but Platform 2 would have to be clear for the scheduled freight to go through, not to mention the many ad-hoc moves between Aylesbury Depot and Aylesbury South Sidings which must also pass through platform 2.

And having a driver / unit sitting at AVP for around 45 minutes out of every hour is not hugely productive, particularly when as you assert, most people would have simply driven to Aylesbury instead and some who were able to would just have changed their plans and chosen to travel to London on a different day.

 

[Kite159]

What's the difference in car park pricing between Aylesbury Parkway & Aylesbury itself?
Assuming there is a difference

 

[sammyg901]

What's the difference in car park pricing between Aylesbury Parkway & Aylesbury itself?
Assuming there is a difference

Usually £8.50 vs £3. However tomorrow it's showing as £4.25 in Ringgo perhaps in recognition of the difference/ disruption

 

[Starmill]

Aylesbury has 3 platforms. They'll have needed 1 today for the roughly hourly via HW service in operation.

AVP to AYS takes 6 minutes.

The off peak pattern was *roughly* xx20 in, xx32 out, varying by a minute here or there. Indeed not enough to go to Parkway and back.

Strikes me that the following would certainly be possible with one 2-car unit and a couple of driver shifts:

AVP depart xx19
AYS arrive xx25

AYS depart xx30
AVP arrive xx36

Then a long tea break until the next hour!

In hours with a freight path, run it back to Aylesbury to get out of the way then back to AVP again.

I suppose to be fair most people would just have driven to AYS instead, and that'd be a reason not to bother. But if staff were spare (as I guess they would be with a whole line not operating) then it'd not be an expensive thing to do. And if you use that argument then you question why it opened at all!

I think that the answer is ultimately because nobody at Chiltern thought of it. Management are, as with most transport undertakings currently, stretched dealing with low morale, various forms of industrial action, and a variety of severe financial constraints. Management grade staff may also not have had a pay rise for three years and as a result be dealing with higher than usual attrition or poor retention in office-based staff.

To put it another way: a standard lack of customer focus, common throughout the industry. This is very unlikely to be any individual manager's personal fault, but it is the organisational outcome. As you say, next to nobody would have used this shuttle if they had run it.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think that the answer is ultimately because nobody at Chiltern thought of it. Management are, as with most transport undertakings currently, stretched dealing with low morale, various forms of industrial action, and a variety of severe financial constraints. Management grade staff may also not have had a pay rise for three years and as a result be dealing with higher than usual attrition or poor retention in office-based staff.

To put it another way: a standard lack of customer focus, common throughout the industry. This is very unlikely to be any individual manager's personal fault, but it is the organisational outcome. As you say, next to nobody would have used this shuttle if they had run it.

Knowing many of the team in Chiltern Railways train planning, I would say this is most unlikely. It may have been that there were no spare units available, having been used to strengthen services / run additional trains on other routes, who knows. I'm sure there was a much better explanation than 'nobody thought of it'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Knowing many of the team in Chiltern Railways train planning, I would say this is most unlikely. It may have been that there were no spare units available, having been used to strengthen services / run additional trains on other routes, who knows. I'm sure there was a much better explanation than 'nobody thought of it'.

Interestingly tomorrow morning there are a couple of the via HW trains extended back to AVP in the early morning.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect as much as anything this will simply have been down to planning resource and just not having enough resource to create another variation of a strike plan.

There is a change of signaller just north of Great Missenden (Marylebone North) and just north of Amersham (LUL Amersham) - without Amersham being in operation it's not possible to use the Crossover just south of Great Missenden as there is no way of Marylebone North knowing that the section of line is clear. Hence no shuttle service today.

Are the right answers.

It’s difficult to explain just how much strain planning teams have been under in the last few weeks. Strikes on / strikes off / but some strikes still on / planning diagrams for Christmas engineering works / final resourcing for Dec 22 timetable / scheduling work for May 23 timetable / early planning deadlines for Dec 23 (next week) / Annual Business Plan for DfT to reduce costs by big% / andthelistgoeson. I have repetitive strain injury from doffing my cap to these guys for the work these guys have done recently - unsung heroes all of them.

Of course not everyone is involved in all of this, but some people are. And in a small TOC like Chiltern, who I think have only about 6/7 people in their entire planning / resourcing team, something has to give, especially if it has coincided with someone being off on holiday / sick etc.