Chiltern Rail fare dodging and possible prosecution - can I request cctv

[Class93]

Providing you have evidence he tapped in at Amersham on a TFL contactless card and you can provide that, then surely it goes away?

The train line data is purely circumstantial and doesn’t prove anything. That’s pure conjecture and I would ignore it providing you can prove he tapped in and whilst I’m not sure he knew he had unintentionally paid, but if you can prove they stopped him tapping out then that’s on them.

 

[MikeWh]

I think there are some important points here that several posters are either ignoring, or forgetting about. Plus some other thoughts.

1) The son didn't realise that he couldn't use contactless on Chiltern trains. This really isn't as surprising as all that. I often get people on my site asking whether Oyster (let alone contactless) can be used on National Rail services.
2) He wasn't prevented from touching out at Marylebone because he didn't try. He tried to use the ticket he'd bought on the train. After he'd finished at the ticket office he made a simple zone 1 tube journey from Marylebone to Paddington. Touching in at Marylebone LU will have made the touch in at Amersham into an incomplete journey.
3) In addition to proving that he touched in at Amersham that day (and thus didn't travel from Great Missenden), his contactless journey history will hopefully show several other journeys from Amersham to Baker Street or similar destinations. This will help back up the fact that he often uses Amersham.
4) As to the other dates when they are alleging short faring, if you can screenshot text messages asking you to transport him to or pick him up from Amersham, that should be enough to cast doubt on the accusation. If you can also provide similar for any recent contactless journeys on the Met then that would further strengthen the case.

 

[furlong]

There are several strands to this, but the most important one first is to obtain the online contactless history.

Once you've done this, please show us what it says for that particular day. so we can work out how to match it against the payments that were taken (and please double-check the amounts you quoted),and whether or not it helps your case.

Even if the touch in is found to be missing or at a different station from the one you told us, there would still be things you could do to try to avoid it reaching court.

By the way, as you say CCTV was discussed at the time and would clearly be of potential relevance to your defence, I think you're entitled to expect them to have retained that in case it was going to be needed as evidence to prove where he did (or didn't) join the train. If they didn't preserve it, that should make it more difficult for them to argue that he boarded somewhere else.

Also, were the tickets purchased electronic tickets that can be shown on a phone (with a square barcode) or ones that had to be collected from a machine before they could be used?

 

[spyinthesky]

As a former Welfare officer I doubt very much that a conviction of this nature would affect his career.
Long gone are the days where such things were classed as bringing the service into disrepute as this would be trying someone for the same offence twice.
Of course he must declare if he is to be charged with an offence but seeking Welfare advice prior to any such charge is confidential and will put his mind at ease.

 

[fandroid]

I too would strongly recommend registering that card with TfL and getting the journey history. Having said that the rail company have only the slimmest evidence of short fareing on the day in question and none at all for those other journeys.

 

[WesternLancer]

Does the OP's son have a Forces Railcard of some sort (I don't know much about these) and if so would that affect the sum paid for tickets, deducted from payment card?

 

[skyhigh]

Does the OP's son have a Forces Railcard of some sort (I don't know much about these) and if so would that affect the sum paid for tickets, deducted from payment card?

Railcards can't be applied to Contactless (tap and go) payments so won't affect what's shown on the tap history.

 

[WesternLancer]

Railcards can't be applied to Contactless (tap and go) payments so won't affect what's shown on the tap history.

Thanks - I wondered if that might be the case. Thanks for making it clear.

 

[some bloke]

Neither of those amounts make sense. An incomplete journey would be either £9.40 (if at peak times) or £6.40.

Could it be significant that they add up to £9.40 - might the system have adjusted the fares somehow to make that the total?

As the £7.50 on the bank statement was the fare from Amersham to Marylebone, perhaps the system auto-completed that journey because of the touch in at Marylebone underground.

Even if you can't easily get hold of him to set up the TfL account, if you have the bank statement, that seems reasonable evidence to doubt an allegation that he travelled without a valid ticket.

Even if you don't have that, you can still write before the deadline pointing out politely that TIL haven't responded to the key point that he tapped in at Amersham, and that to your knowledge his bank statement shows the £7.50. You can add that you, like him, believed that contactless wasn't valid on Chiltern but you've now been told that it is.

If they wanted to prosecute they would have until 21 July, but it looks like they won't.

 

[Wolfie]

As a former Welfare officer I doubt very much that a conviction of this nature would affect his career.
Long gone are the days where such things were classed as bringing the service into disrepute as this would be trying someone for the same offence twice.
Of course he must declare if he is to be charged with an offence but seeking Welfare advice prior to any such charge is confidential and will put his mind at ease.

There are some roles which require higher clearances. If OP's son is in one of those there could be a bigger problem with a conviction.

Got to love the railway once again reversing the normal burden of proof though. The sooner that their prosecution powers are restricted the better.

 

[some bloke]

Although it's hard to see how he could end up convicted, he would be wise to check what he is required to disclose.

If the forces, or his specific role, require people to disclose when they are being investigated for a possible criminal offence, someone may think that includes this investigation by a private company.

The same could apply if the requirement is something like "anything else which could be relevant to conduct".

 

[fandroid]

Railcards can't be applied to Contactless (tap and go) payments so won't affect what's shown on the tap history.

It looks very likely that he has a Forces Railcard, as that is what is shown on the Trainline data that Chiltern obtained and which the OP posted yesterday

 

[MikeWh]

It looks very likely that he has a Forces Railcard, as that is what is shown on the Trainline data that Chiltern obtained and which the OP posted yesterday

Then he should get an Oyster card and add the discount to it. Amersham ought to be able to do it.

 

[LokiZozz]

Hello

The good news is, that thanks to advice on here, we can now see my son's tfl journeys and he did tap out at Amersham and he was charged for whole journey to Paddington. Draft letter and proof of travel. Any further advice very welcome. Thank you.

 

[Wolfie]

Hello

The good news is, that thanks to advice on here, we can now see my son's tfl journeys and he did tap out at Amersham and he was charged for whole journey to Paddington. Draft letter and proof of travel. Any further advice very welcome. Thank you.

Get this resolved first and then, given Chilterns' wholly unwarranted accusations, ask them for a good will repayment of all the double-paid fares!

 

[MikeWh]

Hello

The good news is, that thanks to advice on here, we can now see my son's tfl journeys and he did tap out at Amersham and he was charged for whole journey to Paddington. Draft letter and proof of travel. Any further advice very welcome. Thank you.

Being a little pedantic, but it's important to be clear, your son touched in at Amersham. Because he then made a journey from Marylebone to Paddington the system has automatically added the extra touch to make the full journey. This is however definitive proof that he did pay for the whole journey via TfL, even if he wasn't aware of it. Chiltern would be very brave to continue prosecuting this when faced with this evidence.

You say he touched his debit card on the gates at Marylebone NR and they didn't open. I think this is unlikely unless the gate had trouble reading the card. The contactless system will always let a card exit to avoid someone being trapped inside. You might want to consider exactly what you say about this. The fact that the card continued to work means that if it had read properly at Marylebone NR then it would have opened the gates.

Although technically he failed to show a valid ticket when asked, he had actually paid for the journey, so I would hope that Chiltern will be magnanimous and drop that case.

At least your son now knows he can use PAYG on National Rail, and if he does have a forces Railcard and uses trains regularly in London off-peak then I would recommend getting an Oyster card and adding the discount.

 

[tomuk]

You say he touched his debit card on the gates at Marylebone NR and they didn't open. I think this is unlikely unless the gate had trouble reading the card. The contactless system will always let a card exit to avoid someone being trapped inside. You might want to consider exactly what you say about this. The fact that the card continued to work means that if it had read properly at Marylebone NR then it would have opened the gates.

I don't think this is what has been suggested by the OP it was unneeded Amersham to Marylebone ticket that wouldn't open the barriers was it not. Could this be because it wasn't an e-ticket but a TOD that needs collecting. On that point has the OPs son received any refunds for uncollected TOD tickets.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't think this is what has been suggested by the OP it was unneeded Amersham to Marylebone ticket that wouldn't open the barriers was it not. Could this be because it wasn't an e-ticket but a TOD that needs collecting. On that point has the OPs son received any refunds for uncollected TOD tickets.

If you read the draft letter, the OP does suggest that the debit card was tried once at Marylebone NR. I think it likely that the card didn't read, because it would surely have worked if it had.

 

[tomuk]

If you read the draft letter, the OP does suggest that the debit card was tried once at Marylebone NR. I think it likely that the card didn't read, because it would surely have worked if it had.

I was going by the info originally posted that the son bought an extra ticket by app as they didn't realise Contactless was valid on NR

 

[LokiZozz]

Being a little pedantic, but it's important to be clear, your son touched in at Amersham. Because he then made a journey from Marylebone to Paddington the system has automatically added the extra touch to make the full journey. This is however definitive proof that he did pay for the whole journey via TfL, even if he wasn't aware of it. Chiltern would be very brave to continue prosecuting this when faced with this evidence.

You say he touched his debit card on the gates at Marylebone NR and they didn't open. I think this is unlikely unless the gate had trouble reading the card. The contactless system will always let a card exit to avoid someone being trapped inside. You might want to consider exactly what you say about this. The fact that the card continued to work means that if it had read properly at Marylebone NR then it would have opened the gates.

Although technically he failed to show a valid ticket when asked, he had actually paid for the journey, so I would hope that Chiltern will be magnanimous and drop that case.

At least your son now knows he can use PAYG on National Rail, and if he does have a forces Railcard and uses trains regularly in London off-peak then I would recommend getting an Oyster card and adding the discount.

Thank you for your comments. I know 100% the card reader didn't work for the trainline ticket which is why he went to the ticket office but I'd better try an clarify about the debit card, if I can, which I doubt, so it may be best to remove that point especially if I end up replying on his behalf.

I am hoping they will reconsider. I presume the occasional person is able buy their ticket at the office just before the gate for whatever reason, so the fact he bought a train line ticket before he reached the gates, should also be acceptable although I know now that a purchase should legally be before he steps on the train.

The bit that gets me is the Inspector says he challenged my lad. So he went to a random person to ask if he had a ticket? No way. You can't get through the barrier without a ticket. My son phoned me after - because he went to the office to say his ticket didn't work then got accused of not even being at Amersham and he was pretty cross. Doubt he mentioned checking the CCTV in his report, because he very obviously didn't.

With regards to the other two offences - I think they've printed off 3 months of travel and decided he always gets the train from Great Missenden hence the short ticket. By tapping out at Amersham, at least it's proof he travels from both places. I've got a stack of evidence for this and he also travels back to Chesham but that's not often.

He will be definitely be getting an Oyster card, that's for sure!

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't think this is what has been suggested by the OP it was unneeded Amersham to Marylebone ticket that wouldn't open the barriers was it not. Could this be because it wasn't an e-ticket but a TOD that needs collecting. On that point has the OPs son received any refunds for uncollected TOD tickets.

As a side note, Amersham (and points South thereof) to London isn’t enabled for e-ticket fulfilment as it's priced by London Underground.

 

[some bloke]

If you email rather than using the post, they can get back to you quicker.

If you can't get him to authorise the changes then I agree that you should answer on his behalf.

The "pay when challenged" issue and the CCTV/not-really-checking issue are separate matters of complaint and not fundamental to the point he needs to make that his travel was authorised before departure.

Whether he tried to tap the debit card at Marylebone is not as important as emphasising i) that his travel was authorised and ii) he didn't realise that until after his letter of 28 May.

I suggest answering along the following lines:


"Thank you for your letter of xx date [not 25 May] 2023.

I have now learned something which fundamentally changes the position. I now understand that my journey was authorised by the contactless tap in at Amersham which I mentioned in my letter of 28 May. I attach proof of payment from my TfL contactless history.

When I replied earlier, I still mistakenly thought contactless was only valid on Underground services.

That is why a) I thought I needed a separate ticket for the Chiltern train when I realised that was the next train to arrive, b) at Marylebone I did not mention that I had tapped in, and c) I did not emphasise the tap in more in my first letter.

I really thought it was ok to buy a ticket any time before I got to the gate. I will be very careful about this in the future. However, on this occasion, as I now understand, I had also paid via contactless.

I would like to apologise for this confusion, and for mistakenly thinking that a ticket bought after departure was adequate.

On the other occasions mentioned, I paid the proper fare from the correct station. I attach tickets for the journeys on 3 March and 4 March. I live near Great Missenden station but travel via Amersham about 75% of the time. I prefer to travel via Amersham as it is cheaper. I am happy to provide numerous TfL journey details and countless whatsapp messages discussing with my taxi service (Mum) which station I need a lift to.

I have copied my Mum on this email and give permission for her to provide any further information you may need. I am in HM Forces and I may be uncontactable in the next 4-6 weeks.

I really hope this clears up any confusion and that the matter is settled."

 

[Deerfold]

I really thought it was ok to buy a ticket any time before I got to the gate. I will be very careful about this in the future. However, on this occasion, as I now understand, I had also paid via direct debit.

I'm not sure what the reference to direct debit is about. I'd say contactless.

 

[some bloke]

I'm not sure what the reference to direct debit is about. I'd say contactless.

Thank you - I think they would have got the idea but best to get it right. I've edited it.


Contrary to the impression TIL may have given, there is no offence of "failing to produce a valid ticket". Byelaw 18(2) is,

"a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

A related High Court case is here:

Burns v First Capital Connect [2012] EWHC 1305 (Admin) (01 May 2012)

(Don't mention that to TIL at this stage - I'm saying it as context. The High Court case is about a different situation and there could be an issue about whether the same analysis applies in your son's case. And as @MikeWh says they would be brave to try to prosecute anyway [even if they wanted to] with the evidence you have.)


They might wonder why he didn't ask for a refund of the contactless payment, so that's something which he could add in if he wants.

 

[furlong]

As some bloke suggests, keep this short and to the point and leave out ALL the secondary issues for now.

The fundamental allegation here seems to be one of buying a ticket from a station closer than the one where the journey actually began with multiple "tricks" being used to extract a confession that this was true. If this never happened, evidence can, at best, be circumstantial. Focus on your evidence for the tap at Amersham (don't say 'tapping out' as we think of 'out' meaning it was the END of the journey not the beginning).

As a side note, Amersham (and points South thereof) to London isn’t enabled for e-ticket fulfilment as it's priced by London Underground.

Indeed - the paperwork showed TOD but these points are getting missed because we aren't communicating with the person involved.


When you refer to attaching the other two tickets for March, what is the form of those tickets? Are they (photos of) orange paper card tickets, which will say on them when and where they were printed? Or do you only have electronic receipts, which won't tell you (but which they would be able to look up)? (I wouldn't suggest get drawn into any discussion about other occasions beyond stating known facts of the journey, and I'd only enclose the tickets if they did indeed have printing on them that I could draw attention to showing that they were collected from the right station shortly before boarding the train there.)

 

[some bloke]

If the March tickets/receipts are from Amersham, including them isn't good evidence against the allegation that your son travelled from Missenden. They already have evidence of what he bought for those dates.

Hopefully once they see the TfL history for 22 January they'll stop being concerned enough about him to worry about the March travel.

You could include a couple of screenshots of messages about lifts/travel from Amersham as @MikeWh suggests.

 

[jumble]

Hello. If anyone could help, we would be everso grateful. My son tapped his card at an Amersham (TFL) but the next train was a main line so jumped on that and bought a ticket as he was getting off the train. It wouldn't let him through the gate so he asked the guy at the ticket office who accused him of fare dodging and said he would check the camera at Amersham. He was gone for such a short time, there was no way he checked. Plus my lad was wearing a distinctive sweatshirt so easy to spot. Details were taken and my lad took a number of trains to the coast (all tickets are on trainline and debit card for TFL - in fact he probably paid twice as made another tube journey so they charged him from Amersham!)

He got a letter saying that he hadn't paid and there were other offences. We replied with his version of events and evidence and asked what the other offences were. We have today received a letter saying he was changed by an inspector then bought a ticket. That's not correct as you can't get through the gates at Marylebone without a ticket so why try? There are 2 other occasions where they said it was a short ticket (I think this is because we have a main line station in our village but rarely use it as Amersham is cheaper)

We have 14 days to reply otherwise they will issued a summons. My son is in the Forces and just cannot get a criminal record. I am thinking of hiring a solicitor but his wages are rubbish and although he should've brought the ticket before he got the train, he definitely bought it before he went to the ticket office. If I phone Fare's Recovery and Prosecution Office tomorrow, do you think they will have me have a copy of the cctv which will prove he got on where he said he did and that we went to the ticket office and wasn't stopped by an inspector?

Any help will be appreciated as we are worried sick.

I must be missing something but
Your son says that he bought a ticket as he got off the train at Marylebone
The print out shows that this ticket was purchased at 12.22 but the train only left Amersham at 12.41 which arrives at MYB at 13. 21

I am assuming that the train was actually the 1141 although that only gets to MYB at 12.23
What ever the evidence provided seems unreliable

 

[MikeWh]

I must be missing something but
Your son says that he bought a ticket as he got off the train at Marylebone
The print out shows that this ticket was purchased at 12.22 but the train only left Amersham at 12.41 which arrives at MYB at 13. 21

I am assuming that the train was actually the 1141 although that only gets to MYB at 12.23
What ever the evidence provided seems unreliable

The Contactless journey history says touch in at 1139 at Amersham and 1234 at Marylebone LU. So I think that clarifies which train it was. The angle that we're taking means that it doesn't really matter when the ticket was bought online because the mitigating circumstances are that it was an unnecessary purchase as travel was covered by contactless.

 

[jumble]

The Contactless journey history says touch in at 1139 at Amersham and 1234 at Marylebone LU. So I think that clarifies which train it was. The angle that we're taking means that it doesn't really matter when the ticket was bought online because the mitigating circumstances are that it was an unnecessary purchase as travel was covered by contactless.

Thanks
Your eyes must be better than mine as i could not read the tfl printout

 

[LokiZozz]

If you email rather than using the post, they can get back to you quicker.

If you can't get him to authorise the changes then I agree that you should answer on his behalf.

The "pay when challenged" issue and the CCTV/not-really-checking issue are separate matters of complaint and not fundamental to the point he needs to make that his travel was authorised before departure.

Whether he tried to tap the debit card at Marylebone is not as important as emphasising i) that his travel was authorised and ii) he didn't realise that until after his letter of 28 May.

I suggest answering along the following lines:


"Thank you for your letter of xx date [not 25 May] 2023.

I have now learned something which fundamentally changes the position. I now understand that my journey was authorised by the contactless tap in at Amersham which I mentioned in my letter of 28 May. I attach proof of payment from my TfL contactless history.

When I replied earlier, I still mistakenly thought contactless was only valid on Underground services.

That is why a) I thought I needed a separate ticket for the Chiltern train when I realised that was the next train to arrive, b) at Marylebone I did not mention that I had tapped in, and c) I did not emphasise the tap in more in my first letter.

I really thought it was ok to buy a ticket any time before I got to the gate. I will be very careful about this in the future. However, on this occasion, as I now understand, I had also paid via contactless.

I would like to apologise for this confusion, and for mistakenly thinking that a ticket bought after departure was adequate.

On the other occasions mentioned, I paid the proper fare from the correct station. I attach tickets for the journeys on 3 March and 4 March. I live near Great Missenden station but travel via Amersham about 75% of the time. I prefer to travel via Amersham as it is cheaper. I am happy to provide numerous TfL journey details and countless whatsapp messages discussing with my taxi service (Mum) which station I need a lift to.

I have copied my Mum on this email and give permission for her to provide any further information you may need. I am in HM Forces and I may be uncontactable in the next 4-6 weeks.

I really hope this clears up any confusion and that the matter is settled."

Thank you for taking the time to write the above. I think I will go with this and you are right about keeping it simple and to the point. Good idea from someone else about including some messages between him and me about going to Amersham.

Last time, he emailed the letter and I posted a copy to be on the safe side. Will do the same again this time.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's input. This has been incredibly helpful and I will report back whenever I get a reply.

Cheers