Chiltern Railways, are you serious that an Off-Peak Day Return costs the same as an Anytime Day Return?

[miklcct]

I'm checking fares from Wembley Stadium to High Wycombe, and it shows me the Off-Peak Day Return is the same price as the Anytime Day Return, but with a morning peak restriction.

What's the point of having an Off-Peak Day Return which is at the same price as an Anytime Day Return?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Maybe its an oversight. But it does allow the possibility of a differential between prices to occur in the future

 

[JonathanH]

What's the point of having an Off-Peak Day Return which is at the same price as an Anytime Day Return?

If there was only an Anytime Day Return, people would ask why there aren't any off-peak day returns.

 

[Benjwri]

If there was only an Anytime Day Return, people would ask why there aren't any off-peak day returns.

I’m fairly sure they’re going to get more complains from the people who bought a ticket that was off peak restricted without realising, losing flexibility.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I’m fairly sure they’re going to get more complains from the people who bought a ticket that was off peak restricted without realising, losing flexibility.

Surely if someone used an Off-Peak Day Return at the wrong time, they’d just be excessed to the Anytime Day Return fare, which would cost a whole…nothing?

 

[transportphoto]

Surely if someone used an Off-Peak Day Return at the wrong time, they’d just be excessed to the Anytime Day Return fare, which would cost a whole…nothing?

Nail, head. This is exactly what [should] happen.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm checking fares from Wembley Stadium to High Wycombe, and it shows me the Off-Peak Day Return is the same price as the Anytime Day Return, but with a morning peak restriction.

What's the point of having an Off-Peak Day Return which is at the same price as an Anytime Day Return?

It may date back to the days when staff travel facilities holders could only get a discount on Anytime tickets, though now it's been flagged up it may well be fixed.

 

[Benjwri]

Surely if someone used an Off-Peak Day Return at the wrong time, they’d just be excessed to the Anytime Day Return fare, which would cost a whole…nothing?

But what about the people who look at their ticket and don’t travel because they see Off-Peak?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surely if someone used an Off-Peak Day Return at the wrong time, they’d just be excessed to the Anytime Day Return fare, which would cost a whole…nothing?

No chance of the passenger being PF'd or reported for prosecution for using/holding an "invalid" ticket?

 

[Tallguy]

Nothing surprises me with Chiltern who are my local TOC. I’ve just bought some advance tickets to Birmingham from High Wycombe and it was cheaper to buy 2 advance singles than it was an advanced return ticket for the same trains.

 

[danm14]

Nothing surprises me with Chiltern who are my local TOC. I’ve just bought some advance tickets to Birmingham from High Wycombe and it was cheaper to buy 2 advance singles than it was an advanced return ticket for the same trains.

There is no such thing as an Advance Return ticket.

The return ticket would have been a full price walk-up return ticket, not restricted to specific trains, which just so happened to have been purchased in advance rather than at the station five minutes before departure.

 

[FenMan]

If there was only an Anytime Day Return, people would ask why there aren't any off-peak day returns.

You've not been in SWR land recently then? The brilliant minds in SWR pricing have done away with off-peak day returns on numerous flows. Only Anytime day return tickets are available. Weirdly, there is some coding going on that differentiates the price for railcard holders, depending on whether they choose to travel at peak or off-peak times. But, it's impenetrable to find out how SWR define peak and off-peak timings for those flows, which could change at any time of their choosing. This is far from customer friendly and open to plenty of questions.

Example:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[danm14]

Only Anytime day return tickets are available. Weirdly, there is some coding going on that differentiates the price for railcard holders, depending on whether they choose to travel at peak or off-peak times. But, it's impenetrable to find out how SWR define peak and off-peak timings for those flows, which could change at any time of their choosing. This is far from customer friendly and open to plenty of questions.

I'm not seeing anything impenetrable there?

There's an Anytime Day Return, costing £23.70/£15.60/£11.85 (adult/railcard/child).

There's an Evening Out ticket for day return journeys commencing after 12 noon, costing £19.00/£12.50/£9.50. The same ticket is available all day on Sunday, albeit under the name Sunday Out.

The peak restrictions on the Evening Out ticket are clearly stated on the SWR website (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/evening-out-tickets)

If you’re travelling into London, it’s valid on any train that arrives into a London Terminals station after 14:00 and you can return on any train after 19:00 (or after 19:05 from Vauxhall and 19:10 from Clapham Junction).

If you’re heading out of London, it’s valid on any train after 12:00 (except during our evening peak, after 15:59 and before 19:01 from Waterloo, 19:05 from Vauxhall and 19:10 from Clapham Junction). You can return at any time.

For all other journeys you can travel at any time after 12:00.

Is there something I'm missing?

 

[MrJeeves]

No chance of the passenger being PF'd or reported for prosecution for using/holding an "invalid" ticket?

No, this isn't grounds for a PF or prosecution.

Condition 9.5 of the NRCoT: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I'm checking fares from Wembley Stadium to High Wycombe, and it shows me the Off-Peak Day Return is the same price as the Anytime Day Return, but with a morning peak restriction.

What's the point of having an Off-Peak Day Return which is at the same price as an Anytime Day Return?

This actually reminds me, albeit it's not Chiltern Railways, of something last year. Horsham-Weymouth, Off Peak Day Return with 16-25 Railcard added discount: £19.05. But an Anytime Day Return, again with Railcard: just £21.75. (Note: these are last year prices). There is literally just a tiny difference between an off peak and an anytime ticket for that particular journey

If there was only an Anytime Day Return, people would ask why there aren't any off-peak day returns.

You say that, yet there are journeys where only Anytime tickets exist. Example is from Horsham to Crawley, or Gatwick Airport

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You say that, yet there are journeys where only Anytime tickets exist. Example is from Horsham to Crawley, or Gatwick Airport

Is that definitely the case? BR Fares seems to show an £5.50 Off Peak Day Return and an £8.80 Anytime Day Return for journeys between Horsham and Crawley. Admittedly, no Off Peak Singles though.

 

[FenMan]

I'm not seeing anything impenetrable there?

There's an Anytime Day Return, costing £23.70/£15.60/£11.85 (adult/railcard/child).

There's an Evening Out ticket for day return journeys commencing after 12 noon, costing £19.00/£12.50/£9.50. The same ticket is available all day on Sunday, albeit under the name Sunday Out.

The peak restrictions on the Evening Out ticket are clearly stated on the SWR website (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/evening-out-tickets)



Is there something I'm missing?

With respect, yes.

The Evening Out ticket is not relevant as I'm referring to differential prices being charged to Railcard holders purchasing SWR Anytime Day Return tickets for flows where the Off-peak Day tickets have been withdrawn.

Example:
For a Blackwater to Southampton journey using a Senior Railcard, NRE reports the Anytime price is £23.70 for the early departures then from the 09:08 departure the price is reduced to £15.60. I've no problem with the Railcard discount kicking in, but do have an issue that it is not transparent when this happens as, by definition, Anytime tickets have no restrictions and so nothing is visible on BRFares.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Is that definitely the case? BR Fares seems to show an £5.50 Off Peak Day Return and an £8.80 Anytime Day Return for journeys between Horsham and Crawley. Admittedly, no Off Peak Singles though.

Things may have changed now, you know!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've not been in SWR land recently then? The brilliant minds in SWR pricing have done away with off-peak day returns on numerous flows. Only Anytime day return tickets are available. Weirdly, there is some coding going on that differentiates the price for railcard holders, depending on whether they choose to travel at peak or off-peak times. But, it's impenetrable to find out how SWR define peak and off-peak timings for those flows, which could change at any time of their choosing. This is far from customer friendly and open to plenty of questions.

Example:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For most Railcards it is just 10am. For the Family and Friends it's 0930 if there isn't an off peak to go off, if I recall.

 

[Haywain]

With respect, yes.

The Evening Out ticket is not relevant as I'm referring to differential prices being charged to Railcard holders purchasing SWR Anytime Day Return tickets for flows where the Off-peak Day tickets have been withdrawn.

Example:
For a Blackwater to Southampton journey using a Senior Railcard, NRE reports the Anytime price is £23.70 for the early departures then from the 09:08 departure the price is reduced to £15.60. I've no problem with the Railcard discount kicking in, but do have an issue that it is not transparent when this happens as, by definition, Anytime tickets have no restrictions and so nothing is visible on BRFares.

It is the earliest train on which Off Peak tickets are valid which is the 09:08. The Off Peak Return has restriction code B3, which states "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00."

The full text of the time restrictions is helpful here:

Journeys wholly inside the Network Railcard area​

Tickets for journeys wholly inside the Network Railcard area may be discounted;

• after 09:30 if the whole journey is inside the London Fare Zones (see 'London' below), or
• after the corresponding Off-Peak Day (CD), Off-Peak Day Travelcard (ODT) or Off-Peak (SV) fare is valid available for that journey, or
• at any time where there is no Off-Peak fare available for the journey being made
• where available, for journeys to/from "London International CIV" (NLC 5470). See "Issuing Discounted Tickets" for details

On some routes discounted tickets may be available before the corresponding Off-Peak Day, Off-Peak Travelcard or Off-Peak tickets are valid. See 'Easements' below for details.

London​

For travel wholly within the London Fare Zones Area, discounts become available from 09:30 Mondays-Fridays.

 

[FenMan]

It is the earliest train on which Off Peak tickets are valid which is the 09:08. The Off Peak Return has restriction code B3, which states "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00."

Ah, thanks. I now get it that Senior Railcard discounts apply once any off peak ticket is valid, although an off peak day return is no longer offered on this journey.

 

[Haywain]

I now get it that Senior Railcard discounts apply once any off peak ticket is valid,

Any corresponding (ie: for the same journey) Off Peak ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any corresponding (ie: for the same journey) Off Peak ticket.

Am I right that the default is 0930 if there isn't such a ticket? There are few such flows, but Beaulieu Road to Bournemouth is or was one.

 

[danm14]

Am I right that the default is 0930 if there isn't such a ticket? There are few such flows, but Beaulieu Road to Bournemouth is or was one.

Tickets for journeys wholly inside the Network Railcard area may be discounted;

at any time where there is no Off-Peak fare available for the journey being made

It's after 09:30 for journeys wholly within the London Fare Zones, regardless of when Off Peak fares become valid.

Tickets to London International are, like flows with no Off-Peak tickets, also exempt and can be discounted at any time.

 

[Haywain]

Am I right that the default is 0930 if there isn't such a ticket? There are few such flows, but Beaulieu Road to Bournemouth is or was one.

No. Refer to the text quoted in post #20 which is clear that in the absence of an Off Peak fare there is no time restriction (which rather surprised me!). However, the flow you mention does have an Off Peak Day Return.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The morning time restriction for Senior Railcard discounts does not apply, even on Chiltern, for journeys out of the Network Railcard area. For example Wembley Stadium to Kidderminster Super Off-Peak Return is available with Senior Railcard at £24 to depart 0850 (arrive Kidderminster 12.06) and return at what might be construed as an evening peak time of 17.01 arriving back in Wembley at 20.20.

 

[Taunton]

The railway has long had such things. Returns which are cheaper than singles, without any further restriction. First class cheaper than standard, for the same conditions. The latter made more sense. It was on the MML in the past, with limited accommodation and low demand for the extensive first provision, so diverted selected (generally the longest distance) passengers into the first class accommodation.

 

[Haywain]

The morning time restriction for Senior Railcard discounts does not apply, even on Chiltern, for journeys out of the Network Railcard area. For example Wembley Stadium to Kidderminster Super Off-Peak Return is available with Senior Railcard at £24 to depart 0850 (arrive Kidderminster 12.06) and return at what might be construed as an evening peak time of 17.01 arriving back in Wembley at 20.20.

That's of no consolation if your journey is from another line and can only be made by travelling through London. A railcard discount on an Anytime fare is still a much more expensive option. The increasing imposition of such double restrictions makes longer distance travel much more difficult - and living on the Midland Main Line can be particularly problematic as there isn't an alternative to EMR to escape the Network Railcard area by avoiding London.

 

[miklcct]

That's of no consolation if your journey is from another line and can only be made by travelling through London. A railcard discount on an Anytime fare is still a much more expensive option. The increasing imposition of such double restrictions makes longer distance travel much more difficult - and living on the Midland Main Line can be particularly problematic as there isn't an alternative to EMR to escape the Network Railcard area by avoiding London.

Have you tried splitting at Bedford?

 

[Haywain]

Have you tried splitting at Bedford?

Most tickets that EMR price or have apparently influenced still have restrictions from Bedford.