Chinese visitor penalty-fared on Thameslink

[DynamicSpirit]

I have a friend who is visiting from China and has just been penalty-fared by the conductor on a train from London to Cambridge, along with her child. She doesn't live in the UK: She arrived only a week ago, to visit for a couple of months, so isn't familiar with the system, and she used her Oyster Travelcard to board the train, thinking that the Oyster was valid to Cambridge and she'd simply be charged a top-up on touching out at Cambridge. So she's obviously rather distressed that she and her child have each been given a £130 penalty fare by the train conductor (reduced to £80 each if she pays within a few weeks), and will still presumably have to buy another ticket to get back to London.

Are there any appeal options in this situation? She's sent me a photo of the penalty fare notice, and that says Govia Thameslink Railway, so I'm assuming it's a Thameslink train she's on.

Also, is the penalty fare notice sufficient for her to get through the barriers and exit the station at Cambridge? She won't need to buy any other ticket to get out of the station there, right?

EDIT: She tells me the train was the 09:33 from Finsbury Park, which I'm now puzzled about because that's showing in the timetable as a Great Northern service, but her penalty ticket definitely says Govia Thameslink Railway

 

[JBuchananGB]

The Penalty Fare dockets will enable her to exit at Cambridge. She will need tickets from Cambridge to Boundary Zone 6 to get back to London. The Cambridge ticket office should be able to sell that. Great Northern is a brand of Govia Thameslink railway.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How has the £30 unpaid fare in the PF been determined? Or have the figures been rounded?

 

[ainsworth74]

EDIT: She tells me the train was the 09:33 from Finsbury Park, which I'm now puzzled about because that's showing in the timetable as a Great Northern service, but her penalty ticket definitely says Govia Thameslink Railway

Great Northern is a brand of Govia Thameslink Railway who are the legal operator of Great Northern, Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express.

 

[Hadders]

Oyster is not valid beyond Potters Bar on the route from Kings Cross to Cambridge. Although harsh a Penalty Fare is the correct action in this situation and the appeal will not succeed, unless something like fedicient warning notices can be found.

The Penalty Fare dockets will enable her to exit at Cambridge. She will need tickets from Cambridge to Boundary Zone 6 to get back to London. The Cambridge ticket office should be able to sell that. Great Northern is a brand of Govia Thameslink railway.

This assumes the OP has a travelcard season loaded on their Oyster card. Although a Travelcard is mentioned in the opening post I suspect the OP actually has PAYG on their Oyster card and if so a ticket to Boundary Zone ticket is not appropriate, a ticket all the way to Kings Cross would be needed.

Also worth noting that if the OP has used Oyster PAYG then they will have been charged a maximum fare because they did not touch out.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Travelcard was mentioned in the OP. The passenger should 100% enquire at the Cambridge ticket office to obtain correct tickets for the return journey.

 

[Hadders]

Travelcard was mentioned in the OP. The passenger should 100% enquire at the Cambridge ticket office to obtain correct tickets for the return journey.

It is but in my experience ‘Travelcard’ is often used as a generic term, hence my explanation above.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be good to see the notice (with details blanked), if there is a procedural matter to be examined.

 

[danm14]

Your post states that both Penalty Fares are for the same amount of money

While Railcard, GroupSave, etc. discounts are not factored into calculating the amount of a Penalty Fare, child fare is considered. A Penalty Fare for a child should be £100 + the child fare, not £100 + the adult fare.

Assuming her child is actually a child (under 16), an appeal of the child's Penalty Fare on the basis that it has been issued for the incorrect amount should be successful.

There may be other grounds to appeal her own Penalty Fare, but even in the absence of any such grounds the above still stands in respect of the child's Penalty Fare, provided the child is under 16.

 

[Watershed]

It would be good to see the notice (with details blanked), if there is a procedural matter to be examined.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park were inadequate. It often is at major stations, with the only notices being an small placard on the gates (thus not complying with the requirement to be "prominent"), without the full required wording.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It would be good to see the notice (with details blanked), if there is a procedural matter to be examined.

Would posting a picture of the notice here make any difference? If so, I can ask my friend if it's OK to do that.

It is but in my experience ‘Travelcard’ is often used as a generic term, hence my explanation above.

It actually was a Travelcard loaded onto an Oyster card. Which I guess at least means that they won't pay a maximum fare for touching in at Finsbury Park

Wouldn't surprise me if the Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park were inadequate. It often is at major stations, with the only notices being an small placard on the gates (thus not complying with the requirement to be "prominent"), without the full required wording.

Thanks, that's a good point. I could certainly go and check.

Assuming her child is actually a child (under 16), an appeal of the child's Penalty Fare on the basis that it has been issued for the incorrect amount should be successful.

Her child is actually 16. Does that count?

 

[skyhigh]

Her child is actually 16. Does that count?

At 16 you pay adult fare so a Penalty Fare issued with the appropriate adult fare would be correct.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would posting a picture of the notice here make any difference? If so, I can ask my friend if it's OK to do that.

Yes, it's important - it needs to be filled out correctly and for the correct fare.

Which train were they on and exactly where were they stopped?

There are multiple potential technical defences which would make any Penalty Fare abortive.

 

[MrJeeves]

Wouldn't surprise me if the Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park were inadequate. It often is at major stations, with the only notices being an small placard on the gates (thus not complying with the requirement to be "prominent"), without the full required wording.

I went to Finsbury Park last weekend and don't recall seeing any noticeable signage between the entrance I used to the station and the NR platforms.

Even if there is, chances are it will be the incorrect wording that we've mentioned in another thread anyway, so technically also eligible for an appeal on those grounds.

 

[Class800]

Could this be failure to apply Equality Act provisions for reasonable adjustment to prevent discrimination on grounds of race and ethnicity, which are protected characteristics - given a foreigner with potentially poor English and different cultural experiences could not be expected to understand the system. I personally think it's on very suspect grounds this penalty fare. Yet equality issues are not always well handled in the railway. I would not expect this to be a straightforward one to resolve

 

[Hadders]

Could this be failure to apply Equality Act provisions for reasonable adjustment to prevent discrimination on grounds of race and ethnicity, which are protected characteristics - given a foreigner with potentially poor English and different cultural experiences could not be expected to understand the system. I personally think it's on very suspect grounds this penalty fare. Yet equality issues are not always well handled in the railway. I would not expect this to be a straightforward one to resolve

No it wouldn't.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Most sources of information are pretty upfront on the fact that the Oyster card is valid for transport in London. I'd be surprised if this information wasn't readily available on tourist sites written in Chinese.

 

[fandroid]

Most sources of information are pretty upfront on the fact that the Oyster card is valid for transport in London. I'd be surprised if this information wasn't readily available on tourist sites written in Chinese.

We can't put ourselves into the heads of overseas visitors. Remember that London is a fairly modest-sized city by Chinese standards, and Cambridge might be casually thought to be part of London by many!

 

[185143]

Most sources of information are pretty upfront on the fact that the Oyster card is valid for transport in London. I'd be surprised if this information wasn't readily available on tourist sites written in Chinese.

Somewhere that Gatwick Airport (despite the name) and Potters Bar aren't!

Or, for that matter, Slough and Dorking if you happen to be travelling on a bus. But yes, generally speaking obviously this is the case.

The fact that there are large signs at Brighton, to give just one example, stating that Oyster isn't valid is clear evidence that the OP is far from the first to get it wrong. See also the multiple threads of PFs issued at Stansted Airport.