Clacton Express preservation ideas

[Train Maniac]

With the news that the Clacton Express unit is facing an uncertain future (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/clacton-express-group-put-their-class-309-up-for-sale.243817/)
I was wondering if there were any other ways the unit could be preserved?
For instance, why not combine these 3 coaches with the others currently based at the Owestry railway in Wales (?) and then restore it to mainline condition to operate railtours. While very unlikely, the Hastings Diesels Trust has proven it can work under the right conditions.

 

[JonathanH]

For instance, why not combine these 3 coaches with the others currently based at the Owestry railway in Wales (?) and then restore it to mainline condition to operate railtours.

Money. Restoring it to mainline condition would be very expensive.

While very unlikely, the Hastings Diesels Trust has proven it can work under the right conditions.

Yes, the benefit the Hastings unit has is that it is self powered, and that the operation at St Leonards has other work to pay the bills.

It is sad that the challenge of finding a way of keeping stuff like this mobile, even on preserved railways, is so great. You really need indoor storage.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

How about they just accept it was a daft idea, and that, as we are now finding everywhere, everyone wants electric units saved but nobody wants to put their hands in their pockets?

 

[43096]

The phrase “learn to walk before you run” (or indeed “learn to crawl before you walk”) springs to mind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How about they just accept it was a daft idea, and that, as we are now finding everywhere, everyone wants electric units saved but nobody wants to put their hands in their pockets?

The best case for electric units is as static exhibits in museums, but a 4-car or even 3-car unit takes up a lot of space and is never going to wow the normals like a locomotive will.

With hindsight one of the 2-car versions of the 309s would have been more manageable.

 

[JonathanH]

With hindsight one of the 2-car versions of the 309s would have been more manageable.

When did they last exist? 1978 as 2-car units? 1993 as 4-car units.

The fact that the two units which haven't yet been scrapped still exist is only because they were used by Railtrack as test units.

How about they just accept it was a daft idea, and that, as we are now finding everywhere, everyone wants electric units saved but nobody wants to put their hands in their pockets?

Is it that people don't want to put their hands in their pockets, or that they don't see how preservation is going to be feasible so don't want to risk their money?

 

[Train Maniac]

Yes, the benefit the Hastings unit has is that it is self powered, and that the operation at St Leonards has other work to pay the bills.

OK, so once theyve finished clearing out the old 2nd gen EMUs, would there be some space at the back at either Ilford or Clacton?

As you say though, finding money for anything non essential at the moment is going to be a pain

 

[RobShipway]

It will be a shame to see the class 309 go from the Lavender Line. Although without OHLE, there is not anywhere on the Lavender line that it can be used.

It is a shame that it cannot be stored in St Leonards TMD, even if it was just a short term move for the unit.

Unless the unit is self propelled in some way it is always difficult to keep ex service OHLE units as there is not of the preserved railways that have OHLE fitted. The only other option would be to keep it to a standard where it could be used on the national rail network OHLE, which given the costs so far would be rather difficult to do.

 

[43096]

Is it that people don't want to put their hands in their pockets, or that they don't see how preservation is going to be feasible so don't want to risk their money?

There’s an awful lot of people in this hobby who think it a good idea to tell preservationists what to do and expecting others to fund it. Those making these comments tend to run a mile when it comes to actually doing anything.

 

[BigB]

There’s an awful lot of people in this hobby who think it a good idea to tell preservationists what to do and expecting others to fund it. Those making these comments tend to run a mile when it comes to actually doing anything.

Quite. However they are happy to turn out in droves to take photographs using the excuse that they are giving it publicity. After all the funds have been raised and the work has been done....

Back to the 309 - getting anything electrical back onto the main line is a nightmare logistically, as without a power source recommissioning is not really possible. The idea that somewhere like Ilford would want it at the back of the works/depot is unlikely in the extreme as well. The truth is that we are probably not going to see any successfully preserved electric units unless owned by someone with very deep pockets who can see that there is an obvious return on their investment. Maybe, just maybe, as hauled stock but would there really be a demand for that??

 

[357]

Maybe, just maybe, as hauled stock but would there really be a demand for that??

This unit would be compatible with air braked locos, but would need a generator or batteries onboard for lights and heating.

 

[Train Maniac]

There’s an awful lot of people in this hobby who think it a good idea to tell preservationists what to do and expecting others to fund it. Those making these comments tend to run a mile when it comes to actually doing anything.

It may not be the requested £39K but i do go to the effort of making a donation to such groups if and when the collection bucket is passed round. Likewise i would be more than happy to pay for a railtour on the unit if such an oppurtunity became a reality. Ive never understood why people on a rail forum hold such negative views on such projects. If everyone took a simmilar defeatist view nothing would get done

I was under the impression that one of the reasons the Hastings DEMU is popular is that it has a buffet car. Wasnt the Clacton Express somewhat well known for its buffet service? ( marketing potential i mean)

 

[Towers]

Even looking at the museum option, the only realistic outcome really would be a single driving car from each of the various survivors being placed on static display.

I wonder if one of the more 'creative' railtour operators might have scope to maintain a small fleet of various single driving cars and stick them on one end of a rake of MK1/2/3s on outings?! It'd add a bit of novelty if nothing else!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was under the impression that one of the reasons the Hastings DEMU is popular is that it has a buffet car. Wasnt the Clacton Express somewhat well known for its buffet service? ( marketing potential i mean)

AIUI the Griddle Cars were withdrawn early and replaced with a spare mk1, and scrapped due to containing large amounts of asbestos. A similar fate befell the griddle cars from the similar-looking (but unrelated) Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMUs.

 

[O L Leigh]

I’d say that the CEPG have pitched it about right in terms of their description. Anything else is only going to cost waaaay more money for ever diminishing returns.

The suggestion that either Ilford or Clacton taking it on are fanciful as I doubt they have the space or resources for a pet unit. It would also make the unit less accessible as folk couldn’t just pop along and expect to see it.

 

[Train Maniac]

I’d say that the CEPG have pitched it about right in terms of their description. Anything else is only going to cost waaaay more money for ever diminishing returns.

The suggestion that either Ilford or Clacton taking it on are fanciful as I doubt they have the space or resources for a pet unit. It would also make the unit less accessible as folk couldn’t just pop along and expect to see it.

While you make a good point, i was more making a comparison with the Hastings Unit. It was said that St Leonards is able to keep it in good order due to the fact it is an active depot for GBRF as well; I was wondering if there was something similar on the Great Eastern Region. Evidently not....

I also question the instant dismissal with heritage electric traction. What about WCRC's 86 259 'Les Ross'?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Could it be refitted as a 'luxury' train and marketed to the luxury end of the special trains market, either as self-powered or hauled stock? Its 100mph top speed would give it a wide route availablity, I would have thought. And with perhaps one car kept in original seating configuration for the gricers?

 

[JonathanH]

I also question the instant dismissal with heritage electric traction. What about WCRC's 86 259 'Les Ross'?

It has been indicated elsewhere that 86259 was taken out of service in working order, and that if it were to ever 'go bang', that will basically be the end of it.

The Clacton unit isn't in that sort of condition.

 

[CEPG]

Thanks all for the healthy discussion without it devolving too much into cynical pessimism, as can often be the way with EMU preservation. It's no secret that the market is small and the scope is perhaps limited but there definitely is scope. One of the biggest challenges is finding a supportive home which can work with the group to achieve the aims, which as have been published, are small but feasible with the right attitudes. I shall attempt to go through and answer any Questions/ Concerns while always remaining open and receptive to options. We currently have 4 independent plans in place for new homes with various chances of sucess.

With the news that the Clacton Express unit is facing an uncertain future (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/clacton-express-group-put-their-class-309-up-for-sale.243817/)
I was wondering if there were any other ways the unit could be preserved?
For instance, why not combine these 3 coaches with the others currently based at the Owestry railway in Wales (?) and then restore it to mainline condition to operate railtours. While very unlikely, the Hastings Diesels Trust has proven it can work under the right conditions.

309616 is safe at Owesrty with another group, whom we are in very good contact with. The unfortunate story as to why they were split up is due to the closure of the ERM, both units were preserved together and were meant to stay together, with one providing operational spares for the other. As for getting them back together, its something that is wanted by both groups but would only happen if the right space could be found, as we both wan to work in the best interests of the vehicles.

Mainline condition is not impossible and a strong business case could be put together if you combined 309616, 624 and a surviving 309 TSO at Carnforth. However, as mentioned elsewhere, money is the deciding factor there, not to mention facilities to carry out the work. To be realistic, you would need the financial backing of someone like Jeremy Hoskins or JJP before even looking at it seriously.

When did they last exist? 1978 as 2-car units? 1993 as 4-car units.

The fact that the two units which haven't yet been scrapped still exist is only because they were used by Railtrack as test units.


Is it that people don't want to put their hands in their pockets, or that they don't see how preservation is going to be feasible so don't want to risk their money?

1995 as 2 car units and 2001 as 4 car. However, the 2 car units were reformed in the 80s with the addition of two centre TSOs but could have been reformed back to two if one had been saved. indeed...

OK, so once theyve finished clearing out the old 2nd gen EMUs, would there be some space at the back at either Ilford or Clacton?

As you say though, finding money for anything non essential at the moment is going to be a pain

Believe it or not, Clacton was quite close to keeping a 309 as a pet when they retired in 2000 but politics sadly got in the way. Nowadays, in the privatised system, there is no room for depot pets at all so any chance of 624 going back to Clacton is none. The Ilford 306 was a unique example of a depot pet, it just barely survived. (There is a remarkable story about upper management catching wind of the pet, ordering its scrapping and Ilford sending another 306 masquerading in its place). FGE kept it going in early privatisation but the second NXEA came in it was out.

This unit would be compatible with air braked locos, but would need a generator or batteries onboard for lights and heating.

Indeed, and this is really the angle that we are going for in this instance. Hauled stock is not an awful fate for the unit, considering the alternatives. With a control box and jumper adaptors, the vehicles can be made LH-Blue star compatible. Indeed, many Mk1s already carry generators for the various "lights express" to power the vast amount of external Christmas trim. Everything we are proposing for this set has already been done multiple times in preservation and can be done again. I think for our purposes, it needs not to be viewed as an EMU, but as "3 Mk1s with cabs on either end". There is operational scope much more than some other EMUs attempting to be restored.


To be blunt, no it is not an easy road ahead, and the group have faced and will continue to face difficulties. But preservation was built on perseverance in the face of adversity. I always take the attitude now that I'm not going to become an armchair enthusiast. If I want to see something saved for future generations, I'm going to get off my backside and do my damn best to see it through. This project is the antithesis of that.

Our benefactor is still with us and also wants to see this project succeed, he would not have joined if he did not. But, like us, we can't see a viable future for the unit at its current home and pressure has been placed on us to move. But he will continue to support us wherever the set moves, even being prepared to take a financial hit to ensure the survival of the vehicles.

Hope this answers a lot of Questions. I'm open to further healthy discussions and suggestions about the future of the unit.

 

[357]

With a control box and jumper adaptors, the vehicles can be made LH-Blue star compatible.

The control boxes to make the unit compatible are much more complicated than I fear you think. Trust me on that one.

I think for our purposes, it needs not to be viewed as an EMU, but as "3 Mk1s with cabs on either end".

But commercially and operationally it's not. It can't be hauled by 99% of steam engines. That is a big consideration for any railway taking it on and something you're overlooking.

 

[CEPG]

The control boxes to make the unit compatible are much more complicated than I fear you think. Trust me on that one.



But commercially and operationally it's not. It can't be hauled by 99% of steam engines. That is a big consideration for any railway taking it on and something you're overlooking.

Believe me, we are not underestimating or overlooking anything. We understand one of the unit's key limiting factors currently is the fact it is Air only. However, there are multiple ways of overcoming this issue, one is looking into dual braking, for which we have been working on a detailed engineering report including estimating costs to present to prospective primarily vac-braked steam lines, to demonstrate the scope of work that would be required.

The other is to shift our focus to perhaps target smaller sites that regularly operate one or two diesel locomotives which have Air braking capabilities, meaning any work to operate the set-in passenger service would be a lot less, as the units are currently through air piped, meaning it could operate "as is" as regular hauled stock, with only push-pull work requiring further mods including control air translators and electrical translators etc.

 

[357]

Believe me, we are not underestimating or overlooking anything. We understand one of the unit's key limiting factors currently is the fact it is Air only. However, there are multiple ways of overcoming this issue, one is looking into dual braking, for which we have been working on a detailed engineering report including estimating costs to present to prospective primarily vac-braked steam lines, to demonstrate the scope of work that would be required.

You've not looked at the part of your post that I was quoting.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thanks all for the healthy discussion without it devolving too much into cynical pessimism, as can often be the way with EMU preservation. It's no secret that the market is small and the scope is perhaps limited but there definitely is scope. One of the biggest challenges is finding a supportive home which can work with the group to achieve the aims, which as have been published, are small but feasible with the right attitudes. I shall attempt to go through and answer any Questions/ Concerns while always remaining open and receptive to options. We currently have 4 independent plans in place for new homes with various chances of sucess.



309616 is safe at Owesrty with another group, whom we are in very good contact with. The unfortunate story as to why they were split up is due to the closure of the ERM, both units were preserved together and were meant to stay together, with one providing operational spares for the other. As for getting them back together, its something that is wanted by both groups but would only happen if the right space could be found, as we both wan to work in the best interests of the vehicles.

Mainline condition is not impossible and a strong business case could be put together if you combined 309616, 624 and a surviving 309 TSO at Carnforth. However, as mentioned elsewhere, money is the deciding factor there, not to mention facilities to carry out the work. To be realistic, you would need the financial backing of someone like Jeremy Hoskins or JJP before even looking at it seriously.


1995 as 2 car units and 2001 as 4 car. However, the 2 car units were reformed in the 80s with the addition of two centre TSOs but could have been reformed back to two if one had been saved. indeed...


Believe it or not, Clacton was quite close to keeping a 309 as a pet when they retired in 2000 but politics sadly got in the way. Nowadays, in the privatised system, there is no room for depot pets at all so any chance of 624 going back to Clacton is none. The Ilford 306 was a unique example of a depot pet, it just barely survived. (There is a remarkable story about upper management catching wind of the pet, ordering its scrapping and Ilford sending another 306 masquerading in its place). FGE kept it going in early privatisation but the second NXEA came in it was out.


Indeed, and this is really the angle that we are going for in this instance. Hauled stock is not an awful fate for the unit, considering the alternatives. With a control box and jumper adaptors, the vehicles can be made LH-Blue star compatible. Indeed, many Mk1s already carry generators for the various "lights express" to power the vast amount of external Christmas trim. Everything we are proposing for this set has already been done multiple times in preservation and can be done again. I think for our purposes, it needs not to be viewed as an EMU, but as "3 Mk1s with cabs on either end". There is operational scope much more than some other EMUs attempting to be restored.


To be blunt, no it is not an easy road ahead, and the group have faced and will continue to face difficulties. But preservation was built on perseverance in the face of adversity. I always take the attitude now that I'm not going to become an armchair enthusiast. If I want to see something saved for future generations, I'm going to get off my backside and do my damn best to see it through. This project is the antithesis of that.

Our benefactor is still with us and also wants to see this project succeed, he would not have joined if he did not. But, like us, we can't see a viable future for the unit at its current home and pressure has been placed on us to move. But he will continue to support us wherever the set moves, even being prepared to take a financial hit to ensure the survival of the vehicles.

Hope this answers a lot of Questions. I'm open to further healthy discussions and suggestions about the future of the unit.

At the end of the day, your "benefactor" has rightly decided its best to run a mile and will no doubt not care what / who he sells to.

 

[CEPG]

At the end of the day, your "benefactor" has rightly decided its best to run a mile and will no doubt not care what / who he sells to.

Right, okay. Because you have been privy to every single one of our private conversations and know every plan we have...

Comments like this, from someone supposedly in the same field of preservation, are not helpful. Everyone faces challenges in this industry and instead of providing healthy and constructive discussion all you can come up with is a single false comment. I know the 4-SUB has not had the easiest ride in preservation, but I wish it no ill will and want to see it up and running again one day. Allow me to repeat my last paragraph;

Our benefactor is still with us and also wants to see this project succeed, he would not have joined if he did not. But, like us, we can't see a viable future for the unit at its current home and pressure has been placed on us to move. But he will continue to support us wherever the set moves, even being prepared to take a financial hit to ensure the survival of the vehicles. - Please tell me where in this has he "run a mile?"

Now if you have nothing useful to add to this discussion, please kindly move on. I would suggest actually reading my post next time also.

 

[WAO]

I believe that the carriages are more important than the locomotive to most paying visitors to heritage railways, because they have to sit in and ride in them for some time. The haulage is only seen briefly at the start and finish, because of the crowd of non-paying enthusiasts gathered round.

The 309's are refurbished, like the Warcop CEP's and are comfortable. Modern families relate to them as "old" as they are now used to post-privatisation stock.

For a line focussing on its outside customers, the class 309 has real utility, in my view.

 

[colchesterken]

As a member of CEPG I have offered a donation if a realistic plan comes up, if all the members could come up with a lump sum it could be saved, I am in love with 306 017 and any 309 as they were my youth commuting to Liv st from the East End and later Ipswich
I am sure it is confidential but I bet talks are taking place with the EARM they have space now the 306 has gone
I was told the EARM wanted to cosmetically restore the 306 but NRM would not support them, could this be a way foward?
If they could get it going it could be towed to Clacton for testing, Now that Abellio has changed ownership would the new people be more helpful ?, I got into a discussion with Abellio about the 306 they said "we have a railway to run". ( For the Dutch government ) My thoughts not a quote

 

[CEPG]

As a member of CEPG I have offered a donation if a realistic plan comes up, if all the members could come up with a lump sum it could be saved, I am in love with 306 017 and any 309 as they were my youth commuting to Liv st from the East End and later Ipswich
I am sure it is confidential but I bet talks are taking place with the EARM they have space now the 306 has gone
I was told the EARM wanted to cosmetically restore the 306 but NRM would not support them, could this be a way foward?
If they could get it going it could be towed to Clacton for testing, Now that Abellio has changed ownership would the new people be more helpful ?, I got into a discussion with Abellio about the 306 they said "we have a railway to run". ( For the Dutch government ) My thoughts not a quote

We thank you for your current support and would welcome such a donation once a way forward is secured.
You are correct in there are many confidential talks going on behind the scenes, and so far we have identified at least 4 avenues forward. Rest assurred when we can update, we will.

It's always a shame in my eyes regarding the 306. If the unit had been managed better by the NRM it would have been in a lot better place in preservation and not required the costly and expensive cosmetic job that's just been undertaken on it. Let's hope lessons are learned and the unit never gets in that state again.