Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington

[Wolfie]

I found this thread fascinating and thought I would pose a related question.

What is the default fare between H&I and Clapham Junction?

I can think of 4 perfectly legitimate ways to do the journey:
a By LO via Willesden Junction (hence not through Zone 1);
b By LO via Surrey Quays (hence via Zone 1 at Shoreditch Jigh St);
c By Victoria line to Vauxhall then National Rail to Clapham Junction;
d By Victoria line to Victoria then National Rail to Clapham Junction.

What would be the fare for the other options?

What if the journey started at say Canonbury rather than H&I?

Ta in advance for what I suspect will be most enlightening responses.....

 

[Be3G]

Well, there's a distinct difference between the first two and the latter two options you list. The first two are possible on direct trains, wheres the others both require changing from tube to train through ticket gates. Going through ticket gates tells the Oyster card which way you've travelled, so it is able to charge a different fare for such a journey compared to a direct route.

The interesting thing is how TfL are handling the fact that one direct route goes through zone 1, whereas the other one doesn't. Looking at the fares, it seems TfL are giving passengers the benefit of the doubt, and charging them for a non-zone-1 journey when taking a direct train.

 

[bb21]

The interesting thing is how TfL are handling the fact that one direct route goes through zone 1, whereas the other one doesn't. Looking at the fares, it seems TfL are giving passengers the benefit of the doubt, and charging them for a non-zone-1 journey when taking a direct train.

There is not much they can do really if using a direct service, short of installing card readers/validators on-train so it is only right that passengers are given the benefit of the doubt.

Interchanging at Victoria between LU and NR I suspect will incur the mixed-mode Zone 1 premium, whereas at Vauxhall might not, as there is no travel in Zone 1 on National Rail, hence the system might charge two separate fares if cheaper.

TfL's Single Fare Finder should give the details although I cannot check as I'm on the move at the mo.

 

[bicbasher]

The TfL fare finder shows the alternative fare as the mixed mode method as an alternative, route 1 via Vauxhall and route 2 via London Terminals.

Clapham Junction to Canonbury is also charged as a TfL Zone 2 fare by default.

 

[Waddon]

Now that the London Overground line via Peckham has opened, there are two possible direct routes between these two stations on London Overground

However, one goes via Zone 1 and the other doesn't. Does anyone know how the Oyster charging works? Are you automatically charged for Zone 1, or do you just pay to Zone 2 irrespective of which route you take?

Also, as there are no pink oyster readers at Clapham Junction, if my journey started at, for example, East Croydon, and I chose to travel via Willesden to Highbury and Islington, would the system assume I travelled via Shoreditch High Street and charge the higher fee?

 

[laphroaig]

The TfL single fare finder is the best place to find out;

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/current/Default.aspx

The first fare that comes up (before clicking on the 'alternative fares') looks as though the system will assume you have avoided Z1 if you don't touch any readers between the two stations you mention. Obviously you could actually travel either route.

 

[OwlMan]

Also, as there are no pink oyster readers at Clapham Junction, if my journey started at, for example, East Croydon, and I chose to travel via Willesden to Highbury and Islington, would the system assume I travelled via Shoreditch High Street and charge the higher fee?

A pink reader would be of no use at Clapham Junction as both routes start there.

 

[Deerfold]

A pink reader would be of no use at Clapham Junction as both routes start there.

The route Waddon refers to from East Croydon doesn't.

 

[yorkie]

What if the journey started at say Canonbury rather than H&I?

That also gives you the benefit of the doubt and assumes you avoid Zone 1.

However any station south of Canonbury to any station east of, and incluiding Clapham Jn is priced via Zone 1.

Another example that assumes you avoid Zone 1 is Hoxton to Imperial Wharf. This is quicker via Zone 1 (Shoreditch & Clapham Jn) but you are given the benefit of the doubt here too.

It's a shame that a passenger from, say, Hoxton to Clapham Jn cannot get a discounted fare for going the long way round, but I guess it's seen as just too much of an inconvenience to do that when there is a direct train on a quicker route. There has to be a cutoff point somewhere, and at present the cutoff point is generally in our favour.

Of course Shoreditch shouldn't be in Zone 1, but that's another story

 

[Be3G]

Also, presumably, the cost to TfL of a passenger going the long way round is higher than the short way round (seeing as Shoreditch isn't really a typical zone 1 London terminus station), so from an economic point of view it's understandable that the benefit of the doubt would only extend so far.

It does make me concerned though about people with non-zone-1 season tickets. I'm sure there'd be some people wanting to regularly undertake a journey like Hoxton to Clapham Junction who'd be prepared to go the longer way round to save money on their period travelcard. But with gates at both stations, they'd find themselves being charged extra every day, unless TfL are now employing some extra Oyster logic to prevent that problem (or they think to buy a paper season ticket instead)…

 

[MikeWh]

It does make me concerned though about people with non-zone-1 season tickets. I'm sure there'd be some people wanting to regularly undertake a journey like Hoxton to Clapham Junction who'd be prepared to go the longer way round to save money on their period travelcard. But with gates at both stations, they'd find themselves being charged extra every day, unless TfL are now employing some extra Oyster logic to prevent that problem (or they think to buy a paper season ticket instead)…

That's an interesting can of worms you've just prized open there!

Initially the pink route validators used to say that they are only for PAYG users, and in many/most/almost all cases where a travelcard was loaded onto the Oyster card the default route was changed to be the cheapest irrespective of the route taken unless an intermediate touch gave the game away. However, I think useage of these loopholes has increased to the point where TfL realised something had to be done. On Sunday I noticed that the pink validators at Willesden Junction had new stickers indicating that both PAYG and travelcard holders without zone 1 should touch them. A visitor to my site also noticed the same thing at Gunnersbury.

Going back to the initial point, travel from Hoxton to Clapham Junction via Willesden can only be done by changing at least at Highbury, so the workaround is to touch out and back in again there while changing trains. That will split your journey into two wholly zone 2 journeys and then nothing will be charged to your PAYG if your travelcard is zones 2-3.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed, a workaround, but not a good one because it potentially makes the traveller's journey longer than it should be, if they miss a train whilst faffing with the touching in and out at the gate line. It's a pity that TfL haven't set up an alternative route for that journey that takes the pink validators at Highbury in to consideration, although I suppose if they did, they'd need to install them at Canonbury too as passengers might change there instead.

I wonder what TfL's ‘official’ advice is to passengers who have this problem – where by ‘official’ I mean whispered over the phone in secret to someone who phones the Oyster CSC having been overcharged every day.

 

[wipeout]

This has probably been answered before ... but why is Shoreditch High Street in zone 1?

I guess the question that needs to be answered is how do they decide what zone a station is in? I'm guessing it's based on distance from some central point?

I just find it weird because the whole point of the pink readers and overground thing was to allow journeys to be completed using the overground to avoid zone 1 but Shoreditch High Street means that this can't happen if you travel on the east side of the overground.

 

[swt_passenger]

Shoreditch HS is in zone 1 because DfT and TfL agreed it would be as part of the original ELL funding package before the upgrade to the ELL ever started.

IIRC it was done to prevent a potential revenue loss to TOCs and LU caused by passengers transferring from other zone 1 stations.

 

[MikeWh]

Shoreditch HS is in zone 1 because DfT and TfL agreed it would be as part of the original ELL funding package before the upgrade to the ELL ever started.

IIRC it was done to prevent a potential revenue loss to TOCs and LU caused by passengers transferring from other zone 1 stations.

Indeed. It is just too close to Liverpool Street to be anything other than zone 1. The old Shoreditch station was further away, and only accessible from the south, so just about scraped into zone 2.

 

[Be3G]

I suppose what's ideally wanted is for Shoreditch High Street to be zone 2 for through passengers, but zone 1 for entrance/exit. Though I don't suppose the added complexity would go down well if such an idea were ever adopted. I'm increasingly thinking that the zonal system isn't working so well these days anyway!

 

[transmanche]

Indeed. It is just too close to Liverpool Street to be anything other than zone 1. The old Shoreditch station was further away, and only accessible from the south, so just about scraped into zone 2.

The area around Shoreditch always was in Z1. If you look at this extract from a 1999 London Bus Map (when buses also had fare zones) you can see that Shoreditch tube station is the anomaly, with the zone boundaries bending round it to keep it in Z2. In fact, even Hoxton station should be in Z1, according to that map.

However, to achieve the aim of an outer circle that bypasses central London, it would have been preferable for all of the ELL to be in Z2.

Caveat: There always were a few inconsistencies between bus & tube zones though. E.g. Finsbury Park station and the Station Place bus station were always in Z2, whilst the Wells Terrace bus station was in Z3.

 

[CNash]

So - let me see if I've got this right:

If I were to travel from Welling to Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye, then change to LO and go to Clapham Junction, and from there to Richmond, would I be charged for a Z1 journey (presumably via Waterloo) because there are no route validators at my interchanges? Or for a Z2-4 journey, as that's what I actually did?

If this is the case, doesn't that defeat some of the purpose of having this new link to Clapham Junction for commuters based south of the river? I quite liked the idea of saving £1 or so on my daily fares...

 

[transmanche]

If I were to travel from Welling to Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye, then change to LO and go to Clapham Junction, and from there to Richmond, would I be charged for a Z1 journey (presumably via Waterloo) because there are no route validators at my interchanges? Or for a Z2-4 journey, as that's what I actually did?

If this is the case, doesn't that defeat some of the purpose of having this new link to Clapham Junction for commuters based south of the river? I quite liked the idea of saving £1 or so on my daily fares...

The 'default' fare from Welling to Richmond in 2013 is £2.50 peak, £1.90 off-peak. Which is a Z2-4 fare.

The 'alternative' fares are for via Z1 NR Only (£3.60/£2.50) and via Z1 NR & tube (£5.10/£3.90) - these would be charged only where appropriate, when using the barriers at the interchange stations.

 

[CNash]

Ah, ok. So then, TFL assumes that in this case people are more likely to take a less direct route than simply taking SET to Waterloo East then SWT from Waterloo? I wonder how they decide which routes will be "default" and which will be "alternatives"...

EDIT: Oh, 2013 fares - that explains my confusion. On the 2012 fare finder, the default is the Z1 £2.40 fare. Therefore I apologise to TFL for assuming bad faith - seems they're accounting for the ELL in the 2013 changes!

 

[Be3G]

So then, TFL assumes that in this case people are more likely to take a less direct route than simply taking SET to Waterloo East then SWT from Waterloo? I wonder how they decide which routes will be "default" and which will be "alternatives"...

There're no assumptions needed for that route, which is why it's not a default fare. Passengers would go through ticket gates at Waterloo and then Waterloo East if making that journey, so the Oyster card would know that that route had been taken. That's why the ‘Z1 NR only’ fare that transmanche mentions exists.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, ok. So then, TFL assumes that in this case people are more likely to take a less direct route than simply taking SET to Waterloo East then SWT from Waterloo?

Default fares are not necessarily based on what people are likely to do, for an extreme example see my post back in April for CLJ - Baker St.

I wonder how they decide which routes will be "default" and which will be "alternatives"...

You may find this post helpful (in particular my first paragraph), and the Single Fares finder will always give you the default fare for any flow, but please don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions.

 

[CNash]

Thanks for your advice, it's been quite helpful. I'm going to try out my less-direct route tomorrow - sadly it doesn't help me on the way home as there are no trains on the SET Victoria route down the Bexleyheath line late at night, which is when I clock off, but going to work should save me a little money.

While we're on the topic, a hypothetical - Boris has been making noises about having LO take over SET's metro routes. If this goes ahead, would anyone changing from the LO services to SWT or Southern at Waterloo, London Bridge etc. therefore be charged the Z1 mixed mode premium? That'll be a bit of a nasty shock for regular commuters along those routes...

 

[yorkie]

The premium applies when you use a National Rail 'red route' with a non-National Rail mode (ie, London Underground/DLR) and include Zone 1.

So a journey changing between National Rail at Waterloo does not incur such a premium, and would not irrespective of whether or not the first part of the journey is LO charged at TfL rates.

Don't forget, LO is both a NR TOC and a TfL concession. Using LO with either LU or any other NR TOC does not incur the premium.

 

[Be3G]

(yorkie beat me to it whilst I was writing my own post…)

Nope, London Overground is in a kind of hinterland between National Rail and TfL as far as Oyster charging is concerned: if you use it in conjunction with another National Rail train then you'll only pay a National Rail fare (as, after all, it is part of the NR network). Yet, if you use it in combination with London Underground, you'll only pay a TfL fare, as LO is a TfL service too. A LO+NR+LU journey would, however, still require a mixed-mode fare.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The only previous instance of one station having a zone to itself on a through line was Hampstead Heath - originally it was, like both of its neighbours (and the bus zones outside), in Zone 2. This was later changed (at the instigation of Silverlink???? - but fairly obviously as a profit-raising exercise in any case) to Zone 3 and remained there for several years - and every bit of much as an impediment to cheap fares over a substantial stretch of track (ie Hackney Wick - Kensal Rise) as Shoreditch High St is now. Willesden Junction (originally in Zones 2 and 3) was also moved to Zone 3 only (which had a similar effect on the North London line: both of its neighbours being in zone 2). It took Ken becoming mayor (well, the office of Mayor being established) before these fairly obviously disfavourable or even unreasonable moves were reversed. I wouldn't entirely rule out something similar happening to Shoreditch HS, eventually, too, as it is a glaring anomaly in the same way that these were, even if it's unlikely to happen any time soon.

 

[CNash]

Cheers, Yorkie and Be3G - that clears up a lot of my questions about LO and whether it's a TfL service or not. I'd actually forgotten about the red routes, too.

Yorkie, before you say it... I know, a fares workshop could help me better understand these things!