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Clapham Junction to West Drayton TFL single fare finder

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Halsebee

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On TFL single fare finder Clapham Junction to W Drayton shows the fare at a price that clearly avoids Zone 1, but it doesn't stipulate any route at all. The are various via Zone 1 options given as more expensive alternatives.
There are various complex-ish slow routes via tube to Ealing Broadway obviously.
My question is, is there a "recommended" route and also would a route via West Brompton, District line and Paddington be OK? Is there a gate line at Paddington between District line.and Elizabeth line?
 
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Paddington being in Zone 1, that will probably not work

Oysterfares has the default route as being Zone 2-6


Your best bet is very likely Overground to Shepherd's Bush, Central line to Ealing Broadway and then EL, Google Maps says it's 1h10 min right now
 

swt_passenger

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… Is there a gate line at Paddington between District line.and Elizabeth line?
There was originally going to be a paid side interchange between the Elizabeth line concourse level and the District/Circle Line, but I think it was removed from the eventual station as built. If you follow the signage you have to go through two gatelines. But there is another route down from the EL platform level, via the Bakerloo platform level, then back up to the Bakerloo concourse that links to the H&C, and that longer route is all within the paid area.
 

Watershed

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The default fare is, as you say, priced on the assumption that you avoid Zone 1. However that doesn't definitively mean you must avoid Zone 1 - you can still travel via Zone 1 and be charged the (avoiding Zone 1) default fare as long as you don't meet the specified conditions for one the "via Zone 1" fares.

The "via Zone 1" fares are triggered by undertaking an OSI between National Rail and Underground at the listed ex-"Southern Region" stations. Paddington isn't on that list, so an OSI there (e.g. between the District/Circle and Elizabeth line gatelines) shouldn't cause you to be charged the "via Zone 1" fare.
 

Joe Paxton

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The default fare is, as you say, priced on the assumption that you avoid Zone 1. However that doesn't definitively mean you must avoid Zone 1 - you can still travel via Zone 1 and be charged the (avoiding Zone 1) default fare as long as you don't meet the specified conditions for one the "via Zone 1" fares.

The "via Zone 1" fares are triggered by undertaking an OSI between National Rail and Underground at the listed ex-"Southern Region" stations. Paddington isn't on that list, so an OSI there (e.g. between the District/Circle and Elizabeth line gatelines) shouldn't cause you to be charged the "via Zone 1" fare.

An interesting point. However, with an Oyster card at least I'm not sure it would work like that... fares for Oyster are calculated 'on the fly' on the card itself - or more accurately as the result of the split-second interaction that occurs between the card and the validator.

I'm minded to think that passing through the exit gateline at Paddington (C+D) Underground station would establish that journey as one that involved zone 1, regardless of what then followed e.g. even after an OSI. (In the back of my mind I recall looking at similar scenarios many moons ago... alas I can't recall the details though!)

With contactless, the backoffice processing means it would be possible to charge it as a non-Zone 1 journey, but honestly I'd be surprised if it had been configured as such.

One to test out in the real world I guess (and just possibly one with different results for Oyster and contactless, though I have my doubts).

Nevertheless even if an OSI would define this as a 'via Zone 1' journey, as swt_passenger says this can (quite legitimately) be sidestepped by staying withing the paid/gated area and using the route via the Bakerloo line platforms.
 

JonathanH

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However, with an Oyster card at least I'm not sure it would work like that... fares for Oyster are calculated 'on the fly' on the card itself - or more accurately as the result of the split-second interaction that occurs between the card and the validator.
Yes, I think that is right, once the Zone 1 touch is registered, Oyster won't refund a lower fare for a journey avoiding Zone 1.

With contactless, the backoffice processing means it would be possible to charge it as a non-Zone 1 journey, but honestly I'd be surprised if it had been configured as such.
I have certainly travelled from Whitechapel to Stratford via Liverpool Street underground and Liverpool Street national rail and not been charged the fare for going via Zone 1 with Contactless PAYG.

One to test out in the real world I guess (and just possibly one with different results for Oyster and contactless, though I have my doubts).
Yes, but as above I think it is right that Oyster and Contactless will give different fares.
 

Joe Paxton

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With contactless, the backoffice processing means it would be possible to charge it as a non-Zone 1 journey, but honestly I'd be surprised if it had been configured as such.
I have certainly travelled from Whitechapel to Stratford via Liverpool Street underground and Liverpool Street national rail and not been charged the fare for going via Zone 1 with Contactless PAYG.

One to test out in the real world I guess (and just possibly one with different results for Oyster and contactless, though I have my doubts).
Yes, but as above I think it is right that Oyster and Contactless will give different fares.

Interesting, thanks for the Whitechapel - Liverpool St (LU) - Liverpool St (NR) - Stratford example.

Could be a mistake/omission on TfL's part (re the journey logic), though I suppose it could also exist in case the EL were to go down and people re-route via the H&C and Liverpool Street... though far more likely people would re-route by heading east via Mile End (for the Central) or even West Ham (for the Jubilee), or else cram onto a 25 bus.
 

Watershed

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An interesting point. However, with an Oyster card at least I'm not sure it would work like that... fares for Oyster are calculated 'on the fly' on the card itself - or more accurately as the result of the split-second interaction that occurs between the card and the validator.

I'm minded to think that passing through the exit gateline at Paddington (C+D) Underground station would establish that journey as one that involved zone 1, regardless of what then followed e.g. even after an OSI. (In the back of my mind I recall looking at similar scenarios many moons ago... alas I can't recall the details though!)

With contactless, the backoffice processing means it would be possible to charge it as a non-Zone 1 journey, but honestly I'd be surprised if it had been configured as such.

One to test out in the real world I guess (and just possibly one with different results for Oyster and contactless, though I have my doubts).

Nevertheless even if an OSI would define this as a 'via Zone 1' journey, as swt_passenger says this can (quite legitimately) be sidestepped by staying withing the paid/gated area and using the route via the Bakerloo line platforms.
My understanding is that with Oyster, the system isn't capable of "refunding" the fare to less than the Clapham-Paddington fare that's charged when you touch out at Paddington (to begin the OSI).

However, at peak times, the "default" CLJ-WDT fare is the same as the "default" CLJ-PAD fare anyway, so this isn't an issue. At off-peak times the former is cheaper, so you do have a potential issue.

I'm not sure how any of this interacts with daily or weekly capping, mind.
 

redreni

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My understanding is that with Oyster, the system isn't capable of "refunding" the fare to less than the Clapham-Paddington fare that's charged when you touch out at Paddington (to begin the OSI).

However, at peak times, the "default" CLJ-WDT fare is the same as the "default" CLJ-PAD fare anyway, so this isn't an issue. At off-peak times the former is cheaper, so you do have a potential issue.

I'm not sure how any of this interacts with daily or weekly capping, mind.
Is the potential issue not resolvable by ringing them up, though?

In terms of off-peak fares, TfL's single fare finder gives a 'fare' and two 'alternative fares', both of which are the same and are more expensive than the 'fare'. The single fare finder describes the circumstances in which each of the alternative fares apply:
  1. Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Victoria or Waterloo (or Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, London Bridge or Waterloo East)
  2. Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Vauxhall (or Battersea Park/Battersea Power Station or Queenstown Road/Battersea Power Station)
Would you not say, therefore, that if the passenger travels via zone 1 but does not change between NR and LU at any of
  • Victoria,
  • Waterloo,
  • Blackfriars,
  • Cannon Street,
  • Charing Cross,
  • London Bridge,
  • Waterloo East,
  • Vauxhall,
  • Battersea Park/Battersea Power Station or
  • Queenstown Road/Battersea Power Station
then TfL is only entitled to charge the £2.10 fare?

I struggle to see how the single fare finder result for Clapham Junction to West Drayton could be read any other way? The would-be passenger is surely entitled to conclude that the existence of a list of interchange stations that are said to attract the higher fare means that the higher fare is only applicable to journeys involving a change at those stations?

While I realise doing that may mean that where a passenger passes through zone 1 but doesn't pass through any barriers, a lower fare than advertised would be charged as the system would not be able to distinguish those journeys from those that avoid zone 1, I rather think that would be less likely to erode passenger confidence in PAYG than charging a higher fare than advertised when the passenger uses the OSI at Paddington. And if somebody went from Clapham Junction to West Drayton via the OSI at Paddington, was charged the 'alternative fare' and rang up for a refund of the excess, I can't think what cogent argument TfL could make for not agreeing to refund the passenger?

Alternatively, could TfL make the higher, zone 1 fare the 'fare' and the cheaper one the 'alternative fare', and require use of the OSI at Shepherd's Bush to validate the alternative fare?
 

MikeWh

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The most sensible default route I would suggest is via Shepherd's Bush and Ealing Broadway. But any others avoiding any change at a zone 1 station would also work. If you change at Paddington then a contactless card/device will charge the default fare. Oyster will charge the fare to Paddington at touch out there and will not refund if the fare at the end is cheaper. If it is a normal adult Oyster without any discount loaded then the journeys will be re-run through the back office overnight and any credit due will be refunded within two weeks. IIRC a refund over £1.50 will be processed immediately, smaller values will be processed after two weeks or when further refunds take it over £1.50, whichever happens first. The refund will be loaded on your card when you next touch after it has been queued. This won't happen with zip cards, student/apprentice etc cards or normal Oysters with a railcard discount.

Alternatively, could TfL make the higher, zone 1 fare the 'fare' and the cheaper one the 'alternative fare', and require use of the OSI at Shepherd's Bush to validate the alternative fare?
They could, and I think maybe they will. It's possible it ought to have been done already. The pink reader at Ealing Broadway would also be an alternative, allowing via West Brompton, Earls Court and Ealing Broadway, or even via Richmond, Turnham Green and Ealing Broadway.
 

kieron

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Alternatively, could TfL make the higher, zone 1 fare the 'fare' and the cheaper one the 'alternative fare', and require use of the OSI at Shepherd's Bush to validate the alternative fare?
The current restriction appears on a lot of journeys from Clapham Junction, including ones to zone 1 stations like Paddington. To me, it appears to be more about discouraging people from catching a train towards Victoria or Waterloo from Clapham Junction, rather than entering zone 1 at all.

I do think the penalty is larger than it should be, especially for the zone 2 stations. A through journey via Vauxhall (with no capping or anything) costs more than a journey to Vauxhall and a journey from Vauxhall would.
PeakOff peak
West Drayton-Vauxhall£5.60£3.60
Vauxhall-Clapham Junction£2.90£2.60
Total£8.50£6.20
West Drayton-Clapham Junction£9.90£6.70
Extra£1.4050p
It's not as bad for a change at Victoria et. al., with just a 60p penalty in the peaks, but it seems a pity that a through journey costs that much more.
 

JonathanH

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The current restriction appears on a lot of journeys from Clapham Junction, including ones to zone 1 stations like Paddington. To me, it appears to be more about discouraging people from catching a train towards Victoria or Waterloo from Clapham Junction, rather than entering zone 1 at all.
It is all part of the mixed mode premium though isn't it, and NR prices rising quicker than TfL prices over the last few years.

Travelling via the Southern terminals carries with it a large premium that I don't think is even intended to put people off. It is just a function of neither TfL nor NR wanting to give up revenue.

Vauxhall is always an odd change point because of the different ways it attracts a Zone 1 or Zone 2 fare. I think in the example above it is being treated as if it is a Zone 1 terminal for the purpose of the through journey.

As a slight aside on this, I travelled Reading - Paddington NR - Paddington LU - West Brompton (Pink Reader) - Tadworth on Sunday and appear to have been charged the 'avoiding Zone 1 via West Brompton' fare of £12.10, which is advertised as simply requiring a touch at West Brompton. (I think I previously made a similar journey avoiding Paddington but going via Waterloo after a pink reader touch at West Brompton which did charge the via Zone 1 fare.)
 
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