Class 166 - poor First Class signage

[Bishopstone]

166 208 on the 06.58 Gatwick-Reading this morning.

The only suggestion there might be a first class saloon was a '1' sticker on one leaf of an external door. No anti-macassars; no window or bulkhead stickers; compartment door locked open per the genuinely declassified saloon at the other end; no ticket check throughout and a general free-for-all.

Not fair on those who have paid a premium, or on Standard ticket holders who might be caught in the honey trap, in all innocence.

Is the rest of the class 166 fleet this bad?

 

[antharro]

I thought the first class seats in 166s were slightly wider and a little more reclined with arm rests, and 2+2 instead of 2+3?

There's a picture here on Wikipedia of standard and here of first class.

If you wanna see a crap 1st class, look at GatEx's new class 387s.

 

[Bishopstone]

I thought the first class seats in 166s were slightly wider and a little more reclined with arm rests, and 2+2 instead of 2+3?

There's a picture here on Wikipedia of standard and here of first class.

If you wanna see a crap 1st class, look at GatEx's new class 387s.

I know what the seats are like: I was sat in one. My point is the general absence of signage to confirm whether the section is actually Standard or First. I'm accustomed to this problem on Thameslink and Southern, but I thought GWR were better.

 

[CosherB]

166 208 on the 06.58 Gatwick-Reading this morning.

The only suggestion there might be a first class saloon was a '1' sticker on one leaf of an external door. No anti-macassars; no window or bulkhead stickers; compartment door locked open per the genuinely declassified saloon at the other end; no ticket check throughout and a general free-for-all.

Not fair on those who have paid a premium, or on Standard ticket holders who might be caught in the honey trap, in all innocence.

Is the rest of the class 166 fleet this bad?

Are you sure you were in the correct end of the train?!

 

[II]

Over the last few weeks there seems to have been a wholesale removal of anti-macassers (so named as Macasser was an oil that gents used to use in their hair, if anyone didn't know!), and leaving the internal doors isolated in the open position on the Class 166 fleet. So, in effect, there's now no difference between the First Class compartment and the declassified compartment at the other end.

As you say, pretty poor.

 

[tsr]

Over the last few weeks there seems to have been a wholesale removal of anti-macassers (so named as Macasser was an oil that gents used to use in their hair, if anyone didn't know!), and leaving the internal doors isolated in the open position on the Class 166 fleet. So, in effect, there's now no difference between the First Class compartment and the declassified compartment at the other end.

As you say, pretty poor.

Breaking from my usual habit of refraining from correcting others' spelling, it's spelt "macassar". Antimacassars do still end up absorbing hair dye (and worse) so it can be a good thing that they do still exist.

Anyway, the lack of antimacassars may be to do with finally transferring to GWR interior branding, something which has been remarkably lacking in my experiences of the 165/166 fleet. This is just a hunch - but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody wants to replace the fittings with something more consistent, so they're waiting until all components are available before getting rid of anything reminiscent of the FirstGroup blue/purple/pink. Perhaps the only replacement antimacassars are now GWR branded, and they don't want to have a mix of branding any more than they have to. Alternatively, perhaps First Class branding is being removed in readiness for use on West Country routes which haven't had it on local trains.

 

[MK Tom]

Conversely in my experience regular passengers generally mistake the declassified end for first class, so I usually have it to myself.

 

[Bishopstone]

Over the last few weeks there seems to have been a wholesale removal of anti-macassers (so named as Macasser was an oil that gents used to use in their hair, if anyone didn't know!), and leaving the internal doors isolated in the open position on the Class 166 fleet. So, in effect, there's now no difference between the First Class compartment and the declassified compartment at the other end.

As you say, pretty poor.

Interesting feedback. With the advent of more stringent consumer rights legislation, I think several operators are treading on thin ice with their undifferentiated, poorly marked and unenforced First Class products.

I assume that the tiny percentage of passengers who complain get a partial refund (to the Standard fare), therefore denying the courts a test case.

Another response suggested the 166 fleet may be being prepped for transfer to the Bristol area, but quite a number are staying at Reading for the North Downs line and a few other service groups, aren't they? (Or is it the 165s that will be retained, in part, at Reading?)

 

[superalbs]

Maybe they're getting people prepared for when Electrostars start rolling out on more routes and services, which seem to be standard class only.

At least the seating type is anyway.

 

[FGW_DID]

Interesting feedback. With the advent of more stringent consumer rights legislation, I think several operators are treading on thin ice with their undifferentiated, poorly marked and unenforced First Class products.

I assume that the tiny percentage of passengers who complain get a partial refund (to the Standard fare), therefore denying the courts a test case.

Another response suggested the 166 fleet may be being prepped for transfer to the Bristol area, but quite a number are staying at Reading for the North Downs line and a few other service groups, aren't they? (Or is it the 165s that will be retained, in part, at Reading?)

Initially we were expecting/presuming to retain a number of 165 2 cars for the branch lines and the 166s would be retained for the N. Downs, as they have the extra luggage space and two toilets, handy for trips to Gatwick Aiport and back.

It would appear that current thinking and this is backed by info seen that the 166s will be heading westwards and a selection of 165s will remain at Reading TCD.

 

[Deepgreen]

The 166s are getting worse and worse. 166205 (the sole internally-refurbished example) has its first class mis-labelled and has the external silver stripe at both ends of the unit! The leather look seats have no first class identification and no window stickers. 166210 and 211 have the first class section almost, or totally, unlabelled internally, many other units have perhaps only one peeling window sticker in their first class sections and numerous units have no anti-macassars at all. On top of this, almost all the 166s now have their internal vestibule doors not working. The fleet's in a disgraceful state, and the much-vaunted 'GWR' re-launch has seen a significant decline in quality since. I have no idea why so many anti-macassars are missing, but GWR will have a hard time trying to enforce first class on the fleet (not that we see any enforcement on the NDL anyway). On all the 166s I have been on in the several months, it has been almost impossible to determine whether the first class section is actually that, with a pathetic lack of identification.

BTW, why the guards on the route can't announce the declassification of the first class on the 'stoppers' I don't know, rather than pointlessly repeating the recoded announcements.

 

[Deepgreen]

Initially we were expecting/presuming to retain a number of 165 2 cars for the branch lines and the 166s would be retained for the N. Downs, as they have the extra luggage space and two toilets, handy for trips to Gatwick Aiport and back.

It would appear that current thinking and this is backed by info seen that the 166s will be heading westwards and a selection of 165s will remain at Reading TCD.

So, in the intervening several months (year or more?) we are left with a mis-labelled and de-labelled mess of a fleet.

 

[greaterwest]

The 166s are getting worse and worse. 166205 (the sole internally-refurbished example) has its first class mis-labelled and has the external silver stripe at both ends of the unit! The leather look seats have no first class identification and no window stickers. 166210 and 211 have the first class section almost, or totally, unlabelled internally, many other units have perhaps only one peeling window sticker in their first class sections and numerous units have no anti-macassars at all. On top of this, almost all the 166s now have their internal vestibule doors not working. The fleet's in a disgraceful state, and the much-vaunted 'GWR' re-launch has seen a significant decline in quality since. I have no idea why so many anti-macassars are missing, but GWR will have a hard time trying to enforce first class on the fleet (not that we see any enforcement on the NDL anyway). On all the 166s I have been on in the several months, it has been almost impossible to determine whether the first class section is actually that, with a pathetic lack of identification.

BTW, why the guards on the route can't announce the declassification of the first class on the 'stoppers' I don't know, rather than pointlessly repeating the recoded announcements.

I don't even know whether a first class end is declassified any more, and I used to quite enjoy having the declassified one to myself when the punters didn't know it was. Now it's hard to distinguish between the two ends on some 166s.

Like you said though, it's not often enforced, though when it is, it's often penalty fares for all in aforementioned compartment, I've seen revenue inspectors empty a whole 1st class end before, all students with no tickets. I thankfully haven't encountered them recently on the line, I assume they daren't bother given the labelling situation with the compartments and lack of antimacassars.

The NDL is once again thrown to the wolves, as it always appears to be when something goes wrong! (Shortage of Turbos? Cancel peak Shalford stoppers/shortform other services in lieu of carriages on the GWML!)

Maybe they're getting people prepared for when Electrostars start rolling out on more routes and services, which seem to be standard class only.

At least the seating type is anyway.

The North Downs line is not fully electrified, thus 387s cannot be used.

So, in the intervening several months (year or more?) we are left with a mis-labelled and de-labelled mess of a fleet.

One would assume this is the reason for the de-labelling. Have the 165s got working internal 1st class compartment doors / adequate labelling? I've not been on a 165 for a while though I know they do still appear on the NDL.

 

[JN114]

The 165s are all declassified

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't even know whether a first class end is declassified any more, and I used to quite enjoy having the declassified one to myself when the punters didn't know it was. Now it's hard to distinguish between the two ends on some 166s.

Like you said though, it's not often enforced, though when it is, it's often penalty fares for all in aforementioned compartment, I've seen revenue inspectors empty a whole 1st class end before, all students with no tickets. I thankfully haven't encountered them recently on the line, I assume they daren't bother given the labelling situation with the compartments and lack of antimacassars.

The NDL is once again thrown to the wolves, as it always appears to be when something goes wrong! (Shortage of Turbos? Cancel peak Shalford stoppers/shortform other services in lieu of carriages on the GWML!)

Quite - but FGW/GWR still maintain that they take passenger information so seriously. For a TOC that hadn't undergone a high-profile re-branding this would be bad enough, but given the huge fuss around GWR, it's almost incredible. I simply can't believe that the removal of a few window stickers and the anti-macassars has to be done months or a year ahead of units being transferred. I could remove them from a first class section in ten minutes! On top of this, several units have simply had their external and internal sections mixed up - sheer shoddiness and absence of quality control.

Even Southern never gets it this badly wrong!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it possible that it is in fact vandals that have removed them in order to get away with sitting there? ("But it's like the other end"?)

 

[Deepgreen]

Is it possible that it is in fact vandals that have removed them in order to get away with sitting there? ("But it's like the other end"?)

If that is the case, they've done a very neat and thorough job on many units! Their recent mass disappearance seems to be far beyond occasional random vandalism (which is rare on the NDL anyway).

 

[swt class 450]

The First Class set up on 165s and 166s is very confusing.

Originally the 165s had one First Class section while the 166s had two First Class sections. However this was changed a few years ago so that the 165s have no First Class and the 166s only have one First Class section. However many Guards haven't got a clue and still think that 165s have First Class and 166s have two First Class sections. And then there are some other Guards who think that both the 165s and 166s don't have any First Class.

On the North Downs Line the fast services are meant to have First Class and the stopping services are meant to have Standard Class only (with First Class declassified if the unit has it). However most Guards on this line don't seem to have a clue. Some of them think First Class is declassified on the fast services. Some of them think First Class is still in use on the stopping services. The other problem is that both 165s and 166s can be used on both the fast services and the stopping services. This means that some trains that are advertised as having First Class don't actually have First Class.

So the whole situation with the 165s and 166s is a mess. They should really just get rid of First Class altogether. It causes far too much confusion for both passengers and staff.

 

[furlong]

Are any passengers buying first class tickets thinking they need them to sit in particular sections of trains on services that have no first class? Is this something the ORR should be looking at, forcing the relevant TOCs to sort this out (under threat of prosecution if they don't)? Are there any first class fares available for journeys that never convey first class accommodation?

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day if you need a sign to let you know you are in first class it is a pretty poor first class. You paid for standard with a slightly higher chance of getting a seat. Oddly enough there is an EMT 158 which has old first class seating and people seem to avoid it because it looks first class even though there are no signs to say it is. Speaks volumes.

 

[Deepgreen]

What is especially annoying is that this is an issue that is very easily resolved - simply have a proper national standard for first class delineation. It's not hard to apply sensible labelling consistently. The current situation is just shoddy. It reflects a lot of the supposedly passenger-orientated attitudes of the TOCs. There seem to be very few people employed by TOCs who have any understanding of good information provision or quality control.

Having given up on ever receiving a helpful, or even relevant, response from GWR 'Customer Services', I've just written to Mark Hopwood asking him to explain the state of the 166 fleet.

 

[Deepgreen]

Are any passengers buying first class tickets thinking they need them to sit in particular sections of trains on services that have no first class? Is this something the ORR should be looking at, forcing the relevant TOCs to sort this out (under threat of prosecution if they don't)? Are there any first class fares available for journeys that never convey first class accommodation?

One could say that, as the Gatwicks/fasts on the North Downs line are advertised with first class accommodation, but so many class 166 units have a complete lack of identification of first class, that would lead most to assume that the trains don't contain any.