Class 195 vs C4K, why the quality difference and should the 19xs have been a standard gauge C4K?

[DanNCL]

I’m currently in Northern Ireland and I can’t help being amazed at just how much better quality the C4K units from CAF are compared to the 195s at Northern. Smooth ride, good interior and relatively few rattles. Vs on a 195 a bumpy and jolty ride, non stop rattles and a rather poor interior.

This quality difference applies to the brand new intermediate vehicles on the 6 car C4Ks too so CAF are clearly still capable of building good quality stock, why is it that mainland GB stock from CAF is so poor in comparison? The interior of the GB stock is down to the DFT but the build quality is entirely down to CAF.

In my opinion the 19x units should all have been a standard gauge version of the C4K rather than the poor quality stuff that was ordered instead. Would this have been possible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The C4K is more like the Class 332/333, isn't it? These I believe are CAF built but with Siemens electrical kit?

I must admit I was disappointed in the Civity compared with the superb quality of these, I had expected them to be similar.

 

[DanNCL]

The C4K is more like the Class 332/333, isn't it? These I believe are CAF built but with Siemens electrical kit?

I must admit I was disappointed in the Civity compared with the superb quality of these, I had expected them to be similar.

Yes they are. The interiors especially have more than a little bit in common with that of the 332/333s. Unlike the 332/333s there’s no Siemens equipment in the C4K, everything is from CAF.

 

[MattRat]

DFT bean counters who wanted everything to be the lowest price possible, which backfires when you consider lack of end doors, which cost more to build, but mean doubled up trains require less crew (cheaper long term).

 

[AlastairFraser]

I’m currently in Northern Ireland and I can’t help being amazed at just how much better quality the C4K units from CAF are compared to the 195s at Northern. Smooth ride, good interior and relatively few rattles. Vs on a 195 a bumpy and jolty ride, non stop rattles and a rather poor interior.

This quality difference applies to the brand new intermediate vehicles on the 6 car C4Ks too so CAF are clearly still capable of building good quality stock, why is it that mainland GB stock from CAF is so poor in comparison? The interior of the GB stock is down to the DFT but the build quality is entirely down to CAF.

In my opinion the 19x units should all have been a standard gauge version of the C4K rather than the poor quality stuff that was ordered instead. Would this have been possible?

I think NIR paid more per car, so you get what you pay for.

 

[D365]

I think NIR paid more per car, so you gey what you pay for.

Correct. Totally different technical specifications.

 

[py_megapixel]

Honestly, the more I travel on the 195s and 331s, the more I like them. There's loads of legroom, the seats are quite comfortable, the PIS is good (and they have all the other mod-cons you'd expect), the lighting is pleasant, and the saloon is spacious with lovely big windows.

They do feel a bit cheap compared to what you get on the continent, and for the long-distance service they were originally ordered for, they aren't a patch on 185s - but for the regional work, which is where a lot of them are ending up now, they do the job nicely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly, the more I travel on the 195s and 331s, the more I like them. There's loads of legroom, the seats are quite comfortable, the PIS is good (and they have all the other mod-cons you'd expect), the lighting is pleasant, and the saloon is spacious with lovely big windows.

They do feel a bit cheap compared to what you get on the continent, and for the long-distance service they were originally ordered for, they aren't a patch on 185s - but for the regional work, which is where a lot of them are ending up now, they do the job nicely.

They're more than competent 150/156 and 323 replacements, which is what they increasingly (sensibly) seem to be being used for, bar the WCML services.

 

[Flying Snail]

They're more than competent 150/156 and 323 replacements, which is what they increasingly (sensibly) seem to be being used for, bar the WCML services.

A number of routes that were solidly 158 operated are now mainly or completely 195. York - Preston/Blackpool and the Leeds - Manchester via Bradford services as well as the Leeds - Sheffield fasts.

They are a considerable downgrade on 158s in most aspects and frankly the ride quality on CWR is a downgrade from the bloody pacers.

 

[py_megapixel]

A number of routes that were solidly 158 operated are now mainly or completely 195. York - Preston/Blackpool and the Leeds - Manchester via Bradford services as well as the Leeds - Sheffield fasts.

They are a considerable downgrade on 158s in most aspects and frankly the ride quality on CWR is a downgrade from the bloody pacers.

The ride quality is disappointing my modern standards, but in general I can't say I agree with this. I suppose if you're comparing with per-refurbishment 158s, you liked the old seats (I think they were comfortable but didn't have enough legroom) and didn't mind the fluorescent lighting and beige panelling which in my opinion made them feel very dingy, I could see where you're coming from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ride quality is disappointing my modern standards, but in general I can't say I agree with this. I suppose if you're comparing with per-refurbishment 158s, you liked the old seats (I think they were comfortable but didn't have enough legroom) and didn't mind the fluorescent lighting and beige panelling which in my opinion made them feel very dingy, I could see where you're coming from.

Trouble is that one man's dingy is another man's cosy.

I don't think the 195 lighting is bad, but the indirect lighting in the 196 and 397 I find much nicer.

 

[py_megapixel]

Trouble is that one man's dingy is another man's cosy.

I don't think the 195 lighting is bad, but the indirect lighting in the 196 and 397 I find much nicer.

A properly designed scheme with modern LEDs, I think most people would lean towards calling it cosy - even on something like the 397, where the actual colour temperature of the lights is quite cold.

An entirely beige interior lit by fluorescent tubes - which is what Serco-Abellio Northern seemed to favour on all their stock, not just 158s - I think most would lean towards dingy, even if the overall brightness is the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A properly designed scheme with modern LEDs, I think most people would lean towards calling it cosy - even on something like the 397, where the actual colour temperature of the lights is quite cold.

An entirely beige interior lit by fluorescent tubes - which is what Serco-Abellio Northern seemed to favour on all their stock, not just 158s - I think most would lean towards dingy, even if the overall brightness is the same.

True, SercoNedNorthern did favour interiors like your Nan's front room! The original 158 interior was grey, to be fair to BR, SercoNedNorthern did manage to refurb the units so they looked older!

 

[AlastairFraser]

They're more than competent 150/156 and 323 replacements, which is what they increasingly (sensibly) seem to be being used for, bar the WCML services.

323? Why replace capable electric stock, unless you're referring to the 331s?

 

[Bantamzen]

Honestly, the more I travel on the 195s and 331s, the more I like them. There's loads of legroom, the seats are quite comfortable, the PIS is good (and they have all the other mod-cons you'd expect), the lighting is pleasant, and the saloon is spacious with lovely big windows.

They do feel a bit cheap compared to what you get on the continent, and for the long-distance service they were originally ordered for, they aren't a patch on 185s - but for the regional work, which is where a lot of them are ending up now, they do the job nicely.

I honestly don't mind them for the work that they do either. I particularly like quick off their heels meaning that they can actually make time up when I'm travelling over the Pennines to Warrington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

323? Why replace capable electric stock, unless you're referring to the 331s?

Yes, 195 to replace 150/156 and 331 to replace 319/323.

 

[Mzzzs]

Is the ride quality bad on the 195? I take them often and I don't find the ride quality bad or as bad as people seem to say online.
Find them an upgrade on basically much all the other units northern have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the ride quality bad on the 195? I take them often and I don't find the ride quality bad or as bad as people seem to say online.

If you sit over the bogies there is a lot of juddering and banging - it's a very "busy" ride, not a patch on the super-smooth 158.

Find them an upgrade on basically much all the other units northern have.

Though that might be less so were most of Northern's fleet not 40-year-old hand-me-down junk. A 331 is for instance a massive downgrade on a 350, or a 195 on a 185.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is the ride quality bad on the 195? I take them often and I don't find the ride quality bad or as bad as people seem to say online.
Find them an upgrade on basically much all the other units northern have.

The 323s and some 158s are better, but it does mostly come down to, as Bletchleyite said, the poor quality of most of Northern's existing stock.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They are a considerable downgrade on 158s in most aspects

The ride can be lively, but other than that, nah. They have air conditioning that actually works for starters.

I do think the 331 is a downgrade on the 333 though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 323s and some 158s are better, but it does mostly come down to, as Bletchleyite said, the poor quality of most of Northern's existing stock.

I don't think I'd say 323s are better than 331s, no aircon and 3+2 seating for a start.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do think the 331 is a downgrade on the 333 though.

To be honest sitting over the bogies on some of the 333s running at speed can also get interesting these days.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don't think I'd say 323s are better than 331s, no aircon and 3+2 seating for a start.

Their acceleration puts them above most EMUs on some of the routes they operate - e.g. Hadfield/Glossop route.
The lack of aircon isn't super relevant on the types of journeys they operate - most passengers won't be end to end, and a lot of the ones who are will be using Northern's advances and happy to downgrade for a cheaper fare.
3+2 seating isn't amazing, but you need the capacity on the routes they operate, again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their acceleration puts them above most EMUs on some of the routes they operate - e.g. Hadfield/Glossop route.
The lack of aircon isn't super relevant on the types of journeys they operate - most passengers won't be end to end, and a lot of the ones who are will be using Northern's advances and happy to downgrade for a cheaper fare.
3+2 seating isn't amazing, but you need the capacity on the routes they operate, again.

If Hadfield and Glossop are overcrowding, you just need to swap 3.323 for 4.331. Not cram people into seats barely wider than the 720 ones.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If Hadfield and Glossop are overcrowding, you just need to swap 3.323 for 4.331. Not cram people into seats barely wider than the 720 ones.

The 331s would be slower though and, even if you stuck a 6 car on (possible when WMT relinquish their 323s), the huge induced demand would mean overcrowding too, given the roads in the area are ****e.
The seats and layout are fine for the max 40 min journey; the seat size only becomes a slight issue at Guide Bridge, where it starts getting properly crowded. And that's only 13 mins off Picc.
The problems on the line are easy to solve - 6 car with platform extensions first, then frequency increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 331s would be slower though

Eh? They take off like a rocket, almost knocking people over.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Eh? They take off like a rocket, almost knocking people over.

The 323s are even faster! Anyway, this is getting a bit OT.