Class 22X Engines

[222001]

In peoples experience what is the minimum number of engines a (Super) Voyager or Meridian can run on and still keep time?

I have seen a 4 car Voyager with only 2 engines running. It was late but I'm not sure if it was becuase of the engines or other reasons.

I have seen a lot of 7 car Meridians with 4/7 engines running (recently this has improved with some having all engines running).

Could a 5 car 22X run of 3 engines?

Also another note is how un-healthy some of these engines sound with some of them spluttering and reving all over the place when at a stand! They dont seem all that reliable and I bet they have to be swapped a lot. Although FTPE seem to be ok with them on their 185s in my experience.

 

[FusionRail]

Should be able to, that's the idea of a multiple unit is it not

See this is why we need total HST running on the MML, less NCMU problems..

 

[Bayum]

Should be able to, that's the idea of a multiple unit is it not

See this is why we need total HST running on the MML, less NCMU problems..

But then, if say one of the HST's broke down, would only one be able to move the whole train and keep to time??

Whereas on a Voyager or Meridian, if 1 or even 2 engines broke down, there would still be another 2/3 to keep it moving

 

[Aureol]

But then, if say one of the HST's broke down, would only one be able to move the whole train and keep to time??

Whereas on a Voyager or Meridian, if 1 or even 2 engines broke down, there would still be another 2/3 to keep it moving

A single power car can move a HST set easily, but again keeping to time is another question.
As for the 22Xs, I would assume that with an engine down it would still affect the timings ever so slightly.

 

[Techniquest]

I believe 220s can just about keep to time (not allowing for massive influx of passengers delaying trains mind...) on 2 engines, 221s the same on 3 engines. The 'hotel' power does become an issue obviously, not sure what happens to the at-seat power sockets then.

No idea on 222s, for obvious reasons.

HSTs can run on one power car, this happens far too often for my liking. On super-slack timings, it should manage to keep to time, but on the average service I'd imagine it would lose time throughout until the issue was rectified. Of course, HSTs on one engine only are banned beyond Exeter because of the stupidly tough gradients in Devon and Cornwall.

 

[devon_metro]

I believe 220s can just about keep to time (not allowing for massive influx of passengers delaying trains mind...) on 2 engines, 221s the same on 3 engines. The 'hotel' power does become an issue obviously, not sure what happens to the at-seat power sockets then.

No idea on 222s, for obvious reasons.

HSTs can run on one power car, this happens far too often for my liking. On super-slack timings, it should manage to keep to time, but on the average service I'd imagine it would lose time throughout until the issue was rectified. Of course, HSTs on one engine only are banned beyond Exeter because of the stupidly tough gradients in Devon and Cornwall.

Not true. They are banned beyond Newton Abbot in the direction of Plymouth on OEO.

 

[222001]

I believe 220s can just about keep to time (not allowing for massive influx of passengers delaying trains mind...) on 2 engines, 221s the same on 3 engines. The 'hotel' power does become an issue obviously, not sure what happens to the at-seat power sockets then.

I thought they might be able to. I remember when I saw the Voyager running on 2 engines it was slower than normal to pull away - just a bit slower than the speed a HST does.

I noticed East Midlands Trains have been saying (on the performance posters) that their 222s have been having a lot of engine (and door) failures recently.

Thinking about it the 22X engines are no where near as reliable as the HST engines. I have only ever seen one HST with a single engine running.

 

[Techniquest]

Not true. They are banned beyond Newton Abbot in the direction of Plymouth on OEO.

Oh right, I was informed it was a ban beyond Exeter 100%. Thanks for clarifying the situation.

222001: Only ever seen one HST on OEO? That's fairly lucky really!

 

[222001]

Oh right, I was informed it was a ban beyond Exeter 100%. Thanks for clarifying the situation.

222001: Only ever seen one HST on OEO? That's fairly lucky really!

Yep. I've only ever seen one! Using the railway 3 or 4 days a week I suppose that is lucky!

Also I've just got back from derby where 222007 failed. 3 out of the 5 engines had failed. They even tried to get some fitters to fix it but no luck. We all had to transfer to 222001. Prooves that five car 222s cannot run on 2 engines!
The engines were working in coaches A and B but not in C, D and G which appeared to all be on emergency lighting. Really dark inside!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Regarding OEO on HSTS, you'll find the only downside bringing their timekeeping back is they take forever to accelerate up to speed, however once they are going they will happily cruise along at top speed. It is amazing how capable these engines are for the amount of weight they are dragging. It is also quite common, I see it at least once every couple of weeks in my shifts alone.

 

[Techniquest]

The engines are rated at 2,250hp mind, so they should be able to shift a fair bit. Agreed that it does take a while to shift a 2+8 with a dead power car, but keeps to a good speed fairly happily.

Before we have anti-MTU chaps jump in and gloat, please note it's not always the engine at fault. Dodgy DRA is a common problem, slightly less common (AFAIK) is TPWS failure, sticking brakes, HABDs being set off by a set (less of a reason to have a power car shut down the last two are, yes, but might as well include them). It's not unheard of to have a power car on low fuel and supplying ETS only. Low oil pressure is a common reason with the NXEC ones lately.

 

[90019]

Surely if you're running a 7 car 222, it's a waste of fuel to be running all 7 engines, as im pretty sure running it with less engines, would not make a huge difference when starting, as i doubt they use full power on starting if al 7 are running, and it would use less fuel and create less emissions, because of the times when the train is going at a relatively constant speed, accelerating slowly or decelerating.

 

[222001]

Surely if you're running a 7 car 222, it's a waste of fuel to be running all 7 engines, as im pretty sure running it with less engines, would not make a huge difference when starting, as i doubt they use full power on starting if al 7 are running, and it would use less fuel and create less emissions, because of the times when the train is going at a relatively constant speed, accelerating slowly or decelerating.

I would have thought that too. But I also think more power = better acceleration which will be needed for Sheffield-London apparently. Maybe they should take a leaf from TPE of use an engine management system.

On another note I was suprised to the a 5+5 car Meridian at Derby the other day with ALL 10 engines running (that has to be too much!).
I'm also seeing a lot more 220/221 Voyagers with all engines working which is a good sign.

 

[Darandio]

Don't want to get the MTU - Valenta debate going...............again, but would there be much difference in either set losing a power car? It's just that I have been on a few HST's over the years running on one Valenta and although there was a noticable difference in acceleration, they seemed to still manage it pretty well. However, on a recent ranger, I was waiting at Darlington and while waiting for the next NXEC service, looking at the information screen it was losing time minute by minute and when it arrived, MTU on the front working fine, dead (idling) MTU on the rear. Acceleration was pretty poor, never seemed to reach anything like line speed until Ferryhill cut (12/13 miles) and arrived into Durham another 8 down. Seemed like a lot to me but maybe I was in Valenta wish land that day?

 

[Techniquest]

I think the ECML is rather reliant on sets managing the full 125mph whenever possible and as quickly as possible to allow for maximum paths, with timetables going on that.

That and a 2+9 set with a dead power car will be harder to get moving than a 2+8 with a dead power car. Might be some tough gradients too, I don't know the East Coast at all well.

 

[Wayfarer Sam]

It is possible to run a 5 car 222 on only two engines, however most drivers would fail the train at that point.

 

[222001]

It is possible to run a 5 car 222 on only two engines, however most drivers would fail the train at that point.

Yes I found that out. I was waiting a 222 from Derby going north. 222007 turned up with only two engines running it was took out of service when it reached Derby. It had lost a good 10 minutes by the time it reached there.

 

[Death]

[HST] engines are rated at 2,250hp mind, so they should be able to shift a fair bit. Agreed that it does take a while to shift a 2+8 with a dead power car, but keeps to a good speed fairly happily.

...So that means that a fully working HST set - That runs like a dream, and still holds the accolade of being the World's fastest Diesel train - Has a total power capacity of 4,500 bhp.
If an HST can do what it does on just 4,500 bhp...Just imagine what an APT-P - With it's 8x1,000 bhp (=8,000 bhp) motors - Could achieve! hock:8)

Anyway...Just out of the purest curiosity, does anyone know what the average 22x engine is rated at in terms of power?

 

[class 313]

...So that means that a fully working HST set - That runs like a dream, and still holds the accolade of being the World's fastest Diesel train - Has a total power capacity of 4,500 bhp.
If an HST can do what it does on just 4,500 bhp...Just imagine what an APT-P - With it's 8x1,000 bhp (=8,000 bhp) motors - Could achieve! hock:8)

Anyway...Just out of the purest curiosity, does anyone know what the average 22x engine is rated at in terms of power?

1 x Cummins of 560kW (750hp) at 1800rpm per car

(info from the railway centre)

 

[HSTfan!!!]

...So that means that a fully working HST set - That runs like a dream, and still holds the accolade of being the World's fastest Diesel train - Has a total power capacity of 4,500 bhp.
If an HST can do what it does on just 4,500 bhp...Just imagine what an APT-P - With it's 8x1,000 bhp (=8,000 bhp) motors - Could achieve! hock:8)

Anyway...Just out of the purest curiosity, does anyone know what the average 22x engine is rated at in terms of power?

hp and bhp are not completely the same thing mind

 

[MCR247]

I thought they might be able to. I remember when I saw the Voyager running on 2 engines it was slower than normal to pull away - just a bit slower than the speed a HST does.

I noticed East Midlands Trains have been saying (on the performance posters) that their 222s have been having a lot of engine (and door) failures recently.

Thinking about it the 22X engines are no where near as reliable as the HST engines. I have only ever seen one HST with a single engine running.

Yes because I saw a EMT liveried 222 with a grey door.
I was on a 222 when 1 engine vwas isolated]

for the hst with one engine see: here and here!

 

[16CSVT2700]

HSTs are speed restricted to 100mph on one engine only I believe.

 

[P156KWJ]

Yep. I've only ever seen one! Using the railway 3 or 4 days a week I suppose that is lucky!

Also I've just got back from derby where 222007 failed. 3 out of the 5 engines had failed. They even tried to get some fitters to fix it but no luck. We all had to transfer to 222001. Prooves that five car 222s cannot run on 2 engines!
The engines were working in coaches A and B but not in C, D and G which appeared to all be on emergency lighting. Really dark inside!

that one time you saw a OEO HST, was it at Derby just after christmas last year, think I met you if it was

 

[222001]

that one time you saw a OEO HST, was it at Derby just after christmas last year, think I met you if it was

No, It was some time just after Christmas but it was at Chesterfield not Derby.

 

[87015]

HSTs are speed restricted to 100mph on one engine only I believe.

Probably struggle to attain much more than that on the level anyway, 2250hp for effective load ten or eleven you'd expect to max about around the ton.

 

[16CSVT2700]

Aye they'd just cough, wheeze and give up!

 

[adambro]

Yes because I saw a EMT liveried 222 with a grey door.
I was on a 222 when 1 engine vwas isolated]

for the hst with one engine see: here and here!

LOL. I took the photo you're using as your avatar.

 

[16CSVT2700]

1 x Cummins of 560kW (750hp) at 1800rpm per car

(info from the railway centre)

QSK19s if I remember correctly. Just mounted differently to the 180s

 

[222001]

QSK19s if I remember correctly. Just mounted differently to the 180s

Yep QSK19R. This engine is used in classes 180, 185, 220, 221, 222. This kind of shows that the 185s must be just a bit over-powered! No wonder the fuel consumption on a 185 is high compared to a 158!

 

[Bayum]

The 185's need to be over powered though, something about helping them keep to time on the steep gradients, and to have better acceleration capabilities