Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Zontar]

008 behaved well this afternoon. Managed to have a chat with a fair few passengers who all seem very impressed. The original tube seats seem very popular.

One passenger, an older lady of all people, said to me "these are old tube trains arnt they, my daughter lives in London so im used to these, what a great idea to refurbish them and use them elsewhere!" - a far cry from the opinions of some on this forum ( ha ha )

One thing I have noticed on a few is that the Aircon leaks through the ceiling and leaves puddles on the floor - presume it's condensation.

Great. Was still around 10 minutes late

 

[Invincible]

That's a great article!

But given that cooling was an issue 3-4 years ago, I'd be surprised if that hasn't been resolved.

There's not much that can be done with the design to ensure airflow into radiators. Regular cleaning of filters and radiators will be important ( also affects other DEMU trains, the 175s seem affected).
The use of temperature sensors and control software (getting a balance providing power for traction, air con and hybrid battery charging) will be important to prevent overheating.

 

[MotCO]

There's not much that can be done with the design to ensure airflow into radiators. Regular cleaning of filters and radiators will be important ( also affects other DEMU trains, the 175s seem affected).
The use of temperature sensors and control software (getting a balance providing power for traction, air con and hybrid battery charging) will be important to prevent overheating.

Are the sensors being oversensitive, causing problems?

 

[D365]

There's not much that can be done with the design to ensure airflow into radiators. Regular cleaning of filters and radiators will be important ( also affects other DEMU trains, the 175s seem affected).
The use of temperature sensors and control software (getting a balance providing power for traction, air con and hybrid battery charging) will be important to prevent overheating.

Are the sensors being oversensitive, causing problems?

I don't know specifics, but 230001 has done many laps pounding around Long Marston, trying to tweak the various software parameters.

 

[XAM2175]

There's not much that can be done with the design to ensure airflow into radiators. Regular cleaning of filters and radiators will be important ( also affects other DEMU trains, the 175s seem affected).

Ideally they'd mount the cooling groups on the roof, but obviously that's difficult to do within British loading gauge (unless you have a lower roofline and/or floor height) and very difficult to retrofit on vehicles not designed for it.

 

[Dan G]

There's not much that can be done with the design to ensure airflow into radiators. Regular cleaning of filters and radiators will be important ( also affects other DEMU trains, the 175s seem affected).
The use of temperature sensors and control software (getting a balance providing power for traction, air con and hybrid battery charging) will be important to prevent overheating.

A bigger/faster fan would do the trick (and as I say, I'm sure it's been rectified).

 

[CaergwrleKen]

230 was swapped at Bidston this morning and also now has failed.

This follows a swap yesterday and a journey cancelled. The diagram now covers more trips so it’s more work plus the last trip back from Bidston 2255 is now a bus because the 230 has to go to Birkenhead North.

 

[D365]

A bigger/faster fan would do the trick...

If only it were so easy!

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The evening service seems to be complete write off tonight with cancellations galore since 5:45pm. I think this should have been a 230, running into the evening. But the worse part looks like we now have a timetabled bus replacing the former last train of the day at 11:16pm from Bidston to Wrexham (since the timetable change) so the train can go back to Birkenhead North Depot from Bidston.

It is little wonder the first train today was empty today compared to levels seen before the 150s trains were taken off the line to replace the 175s on TFW priority routes, followed by the subsequent 230 breakdowns over the last few weeks

 

[The Prisoner]

I had my first ride of the Borderlands line today to get to Liverpool. 1136 from Wrexham up to Bidston was 150264 and pretty uneventful.

Arrived at Bidston to try and sample 230008 on the 1736 which was showing as 35 late when we arrived, and disappeared completely off the departures board just before 6pm. Nobody had told the poor guy in the ticket office at Bidston with 30-40 or so people waiting to board - he called someone (assume control) and sure enough it was cancelled. Went back whence we came as far as Hamilton Square and went via Chester to get to Wrexham around 1930.

Had we waited at Bidston (there really is nothing nearby) the following service from Bidston at 1847 was 20 late (with the 150 so can't blame the 230 things), so we beat it by over 30 minutes taking the long way round. Still took two and half hours to travel the 28 miles from Liverpool to Wrexham.

If this is your line I pity you. We weren't in a hurry so it didn't matter to us, but the people I spoke to said it was par for the course and totally unreliable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A bigger/faster fan would do the trick (and as I say, I'm sure it's been rectified).

How many years did Vivarail spend trying to come up with a solution to this particular problem. Was that a matter that was a bane on the units on the Marston Vale line?

 

[Zontar]

I had my first ride of the Borderlands line today to get to Liverpool. 1136 from Wrexham up to Bidston was 150264 and pretty uneventful.

Arrived at Bidston to try and sample 230008 on the 1736 which was showing as 35 late when we arrived, and disappeared completely off the departures board just before 6pm. Nobody had told the poor guy in the ticket office at Bidston with 30-40 or so people waiting to board - he called someone (assume control) and sure enough it was cancelled. Went back whence we came as far as Hamilton Square and went via Chester to get to Wrexham around 1930.

Had we waited at Bidston (there really is nothing nearby) the following service from Bidston at 1847 was 20 late (with the 150 so can't blame the 230 things), so we beat it by over 30 minutes taking the long way round. Still took two and half hours to travel the 28 miles from Liverpool to Wrexham.

If this is your line I pity you. We weren't in a hurry so it didn't matter to us, but the people I spoke to said it was par for the course and totally unreliable.

This is totally unacceptable, painful reading. I don't know why people and tfw continue to defend them and put them in service. Its so obvious they can't do the job just yet.

 

[L401CJF]

This is totally unacceptable, painful reading. I don't know why people and tfw continue to defend them and put them in service. Its so obvious they can't do the job just yet.

I do agree, and unfortunately not a new issue on the line. I can recall multiple times getting to Bidston heading to Neston over the last 20 odd years where I've found the train cancelled and had to wait there at the desolate station over an hour for the next service.

I've been defending the 230 because when they're working they work well, and are overall a step up from the 150 that they're supposed to be replacing - clearly they were quite happy with the reliability as the onboard technicians were removed after a few weeks in service.

That said, there has clearly been a rise in problems over the last few weeks, it could just be a coincidence but it seems to be since the warm weather arrived? Rather than keep sending them out awaiting the inevitable this should be addressed.

I would expect the odd failure here and there, but when it's becoming daily it's a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky, I've worked around 24hours on the 230 now and not had any issues!

I think one of the main issues is lack of ability to get a new one out when one goes wrong too. If a CAF goes wrong (or another class) it's easy enough to swop it at Chester mid route where there are units knocking around and shed drivers to shunt them out.

 

[jamesst]

I had my first ride of the Borderlands line today to get to Liverpool. 1136 from Wrexham up to Bidston was 150264 and pretty uneventful.

Arrived at Bidston to try and sample 230008 on the 1736 which was showing as 35 late when we arrived, and disappeared completely off the departures board just before 6pm. Nobody had told the poor guy in the ticket office at Bidston with 30-40 or so people waiting to board - he called someone (assume control) and sure enough it was cancelled. Went back whence we came as far as Hamilton Square and went via Chester to get to Wrexham around 1930.

Had we waited at Bidston (there really is nothing nearby) the following service from Bidston at 1847 was 20 late (with the 150 so can't blame the 230 things), so we beat it by over 30 minutes taking the long way round. Still took two and half hours to travel the 28 miles from Liverpool to Wrexham.

If this is your line I pity you. We weren't in a hurry so it didn't matter to us, but the people I spoke to said it was par for the course and totally unreliable.

If you do have the misfortune to be stuck at Bidston again there's a big Tesco under the adjoining flyover bridge with cafe and Greggs, far better place to wait!

 

[CapitalStar378]

TfW should forget the 230s and put 2 x 150s on the line. It's completely unacceptable to be providing this level of service.

 

[Caaardiff]

TfW should forget the 230s and put 2 x 150s on the line. It's completely unacceptable to be providing this level of service.

As much as that makes total sense. They're in too deep with Birkenhead depot investment and investment in the units themselves.

 

[allaction]

In their latest statement, TfW have confirmed the pollen problem and as a result are limiting the 230s to 2 hours on in the morning, followed by a 2 hours clean before returning later in the day for another 2 hours on the line.

The pollen cleaning is being undertaken at Bidston and they are looking at having “a second cleaning station at Wrexham in the bay platform.”

They reckon the pollen problem will last until the end of June, but hope to have enough drivers trained or retrained “to run a second unit from 19 June.”

What a palaver, is my comment on the situation!

Unfortunately the 230s have a problem with pollen blocking the filters in the engines. They are curretly unable to stay out on the track for more than 4 hours before needing their filters cleaning of pollen (a 2 hour task). As a result we are going to introduce a new pattern of service - 2 hours of operation in the morning, followed by substitution with a class 150 whilst they are cleaned, and then another 2 hour operation in the afternoon.

This will need to continue throughout the pollen season which is expected to be the end of June...

The TfW Newsletter report from the email. No hyperlink available, sorry.

it’s probably worth making a bee-line to the Borderlands Line early in the day to catch a Class 230 and make hay while the midsummer sun shines…

 

[SuperLuke2334]

In their latest statement, TfW have confirmed the pollen problem and as a result are limiting the 230s to 2 hours on in the morning, followed by a 2 hours clean before returning later in the day for another 2 hours on the line.

The pollen cleaning is being undertaken at Bidston and they are looking at having a second cleaning station at Wrexham in the bay platform.

They reckon the pollen problem will last until the end of June, but hope to have another drivers trained or retrained to run a second unit from 19 June.

What a palaver!

Where is the pollen building up? I didn't think the gensets were enclosed.

 

[L401CJF]

I was just about to say, from what i have heard today it seems the rumours of pollen being the cause is actually true

 

[Zontar]

In their latest statement, TfW have confirmed the pollen problem and as a result are limiting the 230s to 2 hours on in the morning, followed by a 2 hours clean before returning later in the day for another 2 hours on the line.

The pollen cleaning is being undertaken at Bidston and they are looking at having a second cleaning station at Wrexham in the bay platform.

They reckon the pollen problem will last until the end of June, but hope to have another drivers trained or retrained to run a second unit from 19 June.

What a palaver!

Have you got a link to this statement?

 

[allaction]

Have you got a link to this statement?

Sorry, it is in the monthly newsletter sent to those on the TfW mailing list for stakeholders.

I’m currently in a field watching cricket and unable to download it, but I’m certain that others on this list will have ready access to post it here. My apologies.

The problem is stated as ‘pollen filling the engines.’

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Sorry, it is in the monthly newsletter sent to those on the TfW mailing list for stakeholders.

I’m currently in a field watching cricket and unable to download it, but I’m certain that others on this list will have ready access to post it here. My apologies.

The problem is stated as ‘pollen filling the engines.’

It really is concerning if that is the case... hopefully they can find a more permanent solution quickly.

 

[Greybeard33]

It really is concerning if that is the case... hopefully they can find a more permanent solution quickly.

Pollen was blamed for the poor reliability of the Marston Vale 230s four years ago, so it might be over-optimistic to hope for a permanent solution quickly!

Post from 7 October 2019, @xcooler123 :

I was at an expo last week where Vivarail had a stand and were doing a talk. Interestingly, they touched on their reliability issues during the summer with the number one issues being air filters. Essentially, they realised that the air filters were going to get pretty clogged up with pollen, etc. fairly quickly but this happened MUCH quicker than they were expecting. At one point they were changing air filters every night and some of the photos confirmed that they were really blocked! A blocked air filter means reduced air to the engine causing loss of power and overheating. They are currently going through a re-design to improve the system.

What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?

....and (I repeat) similar things happened (in effect, not causes specifically) when Pacers etc were introduced, and that lasted for many, many months. Pacers, of course, were brand new at the time.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many years did Vivarail spend trying to come up with a solution to this particular problem. Was that a matter that was a bane on the units on the Marston Vale line?

Yes, muck building up was a big cause of overheating on the Marston Vale.

 

[315801]

Sounds like it would have been better to create 5 or 6 × 3 coach 150s for thd service and use the fuelling point at Birkenhead North if a 150 set was running low and required a top up.

 

[The exile]

Sounds like it would have been better to create 5 or 6 × 3 coach 150s for thd service and use the fuelling point at Birkenhead North if a 150 set was running low and required a top up.

If there were any spare, which there aren’t.

 

[Dan G]

I'm guessing they don't have the original Ford airbox and air filters!

Good to know what's going on. Obviously they need a permanent solution for that.

 

[TheSel]

Pollen, eh! A case of the commuters ringing their loved ones and saying: "Honey, I'm not home"

 

[Henffordd]

Perhaps the wrong sort of pollen?

 

[TheSel]

BREAKING NEWS;

Having read how good these units are at collecting pollen, Andy Burnham now wants some for his Bee Network.