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Class 29

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delt1c

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Always been interested in The NBL diesels especially the 21’s and 29’s. The trial batch up to 6109 had Orange circle multiple working and the products had blue star, it was always rumoured that some production had orange star. When rebuilt why were they fitted with Orange star and not blue star which surely would have made them a lot more versatile.
Only ever saw 1 when they were in service and that was from a distance at Grangemouth, have to say was a nice looking machine. Drivers I spoke to at the time all said the 29’s were good to drive with a well laid out cab and good forward visibility.
 
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Magdalia

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All of D6100-37 were red circle electro-magnetic control. Only the Kittybrewster batch D6138-57 were blue star electro-pneumatic control.

Changing the control system from red circle to blue star was expensive. As far as I'm aware, it was only ever done on one locomotive, Brush Type 2 D5518.

If you want to know more about the NBL diesel electrics, you need to read Anthony Sayer's recent book.

There is also a previous discussion here:


Drivers I spoke to at the time all said the 29’s were good to drive with a well laid out cab and good forward visibility.
I think this is one of the few redeeming features of what is generally recognised as being one of the least successful of the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme diesels.
 
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delt1c

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All of D6100-37 were red circle electro-magnetic control. Only the Kittybrewster batch D6138-57 were blue star electro-pneumatic control. Changing the control system from red circle to blue star was expensive. As far as I'm aware, it was only ever done on one locomotive, Brush Type 2 D5518. If you want to know more about the NBL diesel electrics, you need to read Anthony Sayer's recent book. There is also a previous discussion here: I think this is one of the few redeeming features of what is generally recognised as being one of the least successful of the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme diesels.
Thanks for reply. This leads to the next strange point. Why when BR were ordering production batches of 20’s 24’s, 26’s, 31’s, 40’s and 45’s all with blue star did they order the 29’s with orange circle. Made even more strange as they were initially allocated to
Finsbury Park along with the blue star 26’s. Some very strange decisions made by BR in those days.
 

Magdalia

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The pilot scheme was designed to be an experiment comparing different specifications. In that context trying different methods of multiple working was a good thing not a bad thing. At the outset the British Transport Commission would not have known which type of multiple working it wanted to be the standard.

D6110-37 were part of the first post pilot scheme order, in May 1957. This followed on so closely after the pilot scheme that the multiple working specification repeated what was in the pilot scheme. All subsequent orders then standardised on blue star for diesel electrics, which is why D6138-57 were built blue star. D6110-37 are the only red circle locos that were not part of the pilot scheme.

Things that look strange with hindsight make a lot more sense when considered in the context of the time that those decisions were made.

One of the holy grails of my research is to find a mixed pair of red circle locos from two different classes working in multiple. I doubt it ever happened.
 

Taunton

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I think this is one of the few redeeming features of what is generally recognised as being one of the least successful of the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme diesels.
Seems to have been a North British feature. The D600 locos on the Western Region were known for being a comfortable ride (the only North British 6-axle locos) for the crew, especially at speed, which contrasted with the mainstream Warships, but the engine room components, more the auxiliaries than the main powerplant, were what was known for poor reliability, elements like fuel pumps etc.

One of the North British issues was that during the 1950s their huge capacity for steam loco building fell right off, the diesel volumes didn't compensate, cash became short, and nobody got pay increases, so many of the best design and supervisory staff left, and they were left with many of lesser experience. Coupled with a management decision not to buy in components but to self-design and build them with the large workforce, using steam-age machine tools to save investment, and it was a perfect storm. Plus, when they went bankrupt in 1962, that was the end of any manufacturers support.

At the outset the British Transport Commission would not have known which type of multiple working it wanted to be the standard.
They could always have just used the AAR standard, which all US manufacturers used by the 1950s, and which of course finally came to Britain in the 1980s with GM locos.
 

Magdalia

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They could always have just used the AAR standard, which all US manufacturers used by the 1950s, and which of course finally came to Britain in the 1980s with GM locos.
Probably not. That would have required either agreement to manufacture under licence in the UK or paying in dollars for it to be imported. Both of those were difficult if not impossible for the BTC, or the UK manufacturers.
 

Taunton

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Probably not. That would have required either agreement to manufacture under licence in the UK or paying in dollars for it to be imported. Both of those were difficult if not impossible for the BTC, or the UK manufacturers.
Funny how the foreign exchange was readily available for all the oil for diesel fuel (and for petrol for the vastly expanding car fleets), but not for some little electronic component for the locomotives.

Anyway, AAR is a standard, for various manufacturers to use, not some chargeable patent from a maker. The technical spec is published. I've often wondered how much the Southern Region EPB control is a variant of it, as both use 27-wire jumpers between units. It even does the management of which way the assembly is to operate after coupling up from different directions, which I understand the original English Electric Class 20 mu control missed, with amusing results. AAR spec here:

 
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D6130

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Drivers I spoke to at the time all said the 29’s were good to drive with a well laid out cab and good forward visibility.
They also gave a very smooth ride, being equipped with Commonweath bogies....but the one piece extruded aluminium cab units gave very poor crash protection. The main reason for the poor reliability and constant leakages of the engines, fuel pumps, lube oil pumps, etc. was because the MAN engines built under licence in Glasgow used metric drawings sent over from Nuernberg and all the measurements had to be (not always too accurately) converted for NBL's all-imperial tool settings.

The twenty locos that were rebuilt with Paxman Ventura engines (class 29) were considerably more reliable and powerful than their unconverted class 21 sisters....but were not entirely unaffected by failures. Indeed the final conversion (D6108) was the first to be withdrawn - less than a year later - after incinerating itself on the West Highland Line. At the end of the day, the 29s were still a small non-standard class with a non-standard multiple-working capability, which were expensive to operate and maintain....and with the advent of the National Traction Plan in the early 1970s, which brought about the transfer to Scotland of the remaining LMR class 27s, the writing was on the wall for these charismatic and characterful locomotives which passed my house and school on a daily basis when I was growing up in Scotland. It was a nice touch that the final passenger duty for one of these locos was when 6119 worked the Royal Train from Faslane Junction on the West Highland Line - where she relieved 5382 and 5405 - down the branch to the Clyde Submarine Base on 25th November 1971. Her boiler then kept Princess Anne warm overnight, before the two 27s worked the RT back South in the morning, followed half an hour later by the immaculately repainted 6119 running light back to Eastfield depot....and I had a lump in my throat as I saw her slip quietly doen the bank past my school playground in Craigendoran - the last time I ever saw a 29 on the West Highland Line.
 

Magdalia

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Funny how the foreign exchange was readily available for all the oil for diesel fuel (and for petrol for the vastly expanding car fleets), but not for some little electronic component for the locomotives.
Indeed. Dollars were scarce, and there were exchange controls. The UK Government decided the priorities, and the BTC were not at the front of the queue. Anyway, a lot of oil could be purchased in sterling, particularly from what is now Iran.
 

Cowley

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They also gave a very smooth ride, being equipped with Commonweath bogies....but the one piece extruded aluminium cab units gave very poor crash protection. The main reason for the poor reliability and constant leakages of the engines, fuel pumps, lube oil pumps, etc. was because the MAN engines built under licence in Glasgow used metric drawings sent over from Nuernberg and all the measurements had to be (not always too accurately) converted for NBL's all-imperial tool settings.

The twenty locos that were rebuilt with Paxman Ventura engines (class 29) were considerably more reliable and powerful than their unconverted class 21 sisters....but were not entirely unaffected by failures. Indeed the final conversion (D6108) was the first to be withdrawn - less than a year later - after incinerating itself on the West Highland Line. At the end of the day, the 29s were still a small non-standard class with a non-standard multiple-working capability, which were expensive to operate and maintain....and with the advent of the National Traction Plan in the early 1970s, which brought about the transfer to Scotland of the remaining LMR class 27s, the writing was on the wall for these charismatic and characterful locomotives which passed my house and school on a daily basis when I was growing up in Scotland. It was a nice touch that the final passenger duty for one of these locos was when 6119 worked the Royal Train from Faslane Junction on the West Highland Line - where she relieved 5382 and 5405 - down the branch to the Clyde Submarine Base on 25th November 1971. Her boiler then kept Princess Anne warm overnight, before the two 27s worked the RT back South in the morning, followed half an hour later by the immaculately repainted 6119 running light back to Eastfield depot....and I had a lump in my throat as I saw her slip quietly doen the bank past my school playground in Craigendoran - the last time I ever saw a 29 on the West Highland Line.

Sometimes when you read a well written post it really takes you to the moment in time. Thanks for that @D6130.
 

delt1c

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Interestingly drivers I knew in the 70's reckoned best cab was the Claytons, shame they were so unreliable. Back to the 21's and 29's does anyone have any sightings of them in the Edinburgh area?
 

D6130

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Interestingly drivers I knew in the 70's reckoned best cab was the Claytons, shame they were so unreliable. Back to the 21's and 29's does anyone have any sightings of them in the Edinburgh area?
They were pretty rare in the Edinburgh area, having only ever been allocated to Eastfield and Kittybrewster (Aberdeen) depots during their Scottish lifetimes....although I believe a couple of the blue star 21s were allocated on loan to Inverness for a few weeks in 1960 for crew training purposes. Anthony Sayer's excellent book has a photo of rebuilt 6100 waiting to leave Craigentinny Carriage sidings in about 1970 with the stock of a return football special to Glasgow. In the last couple of years of service - after they had been superseded on the West Highland and Glasgow-Dundee services by the additional 27s transferred from the LMR (*) - they mainly worked oil trains (often double-headed) and trip freights from Grangemouth, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they may have occasionally passed through the Edinburgh area....although, as far as I know, Haymarket and Millerhill drivers didn't sign them. In 1971, their last year of service, 6121 (which may originally have been 6122, but that's a whole can of worms for a separate thread!) was displayed at the SRPS (**) open day at their original Wallace Street goods yard site in Falkirk....and later in the day worked the last train over the Denny branch, hauling the Society's two preserved Caledonian Railway carriages.

* - London Midland Region
** - Scottish Railway Preservation Society
 

thedbdiboy

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They also gave a very smooth ride, being equipped with Commonweath bogies....but the one piece extruded aluminium cab units gave very poor crash protection. The main reason for the poor reliability and constant leakages of the engines, fuel pumps, lube oil pumps, etc. was because the MAN engines built under licence in Glasgow used metric drawings sent over from Nuernberg and all the measurements had to be (not always too accurately) converted for NBL's all-imperial tool settings.

The twenty locos that were rebuilt with Paxman Ventura engines (class 29) were considerably more reliable and powerful than their unconverted class 21 sisters....but were not entirely unaffected by failures. Indeed the final conversion (D6108) was the first to be withdrawn - less than a year later - after incinerating itself on the West Highland Line. At the end of the day, the 29s were still a small non-standard class with a non-standard multiple-working capability, which were expensive to operate and maintain....and with the advent of the National Traction Plan in the early 1970s, which brought about the transfer to Scotland of the remaining LMR class 27s, the writing was on the wall for these charismatic and characterful locomotives which passed my house and school on a daily basis when I was growing up in Scotland. It was a nice touch that the final passenger duty for one of these locos was when 6119 worked the Royal Train from Faslane Junction on the West Highland Line - where she relieved 5382 and 5405 - down the branch to the Clyde Submarine Base on 25th November 1971. Her boiler then kept Princess Anne warm overnight, before the two 27s worked the RT back South in the morning, followed half an hour later by the immaculately repainted 6119 running light back to Eastfield depot....and I had a lump in my throat as I saw her slip quietly doen the bank past my school playground in Craigendoran - the last time I ever saw a 29 on the West Highland Line.
A lovely post; this class has fascinated me for years but being born in 1968 'down south' I never saw them in real life. My interest was piqued by the Hornby model released in 1978 - unlike any of their other diesels I had never seen/heard of a 'class 29'. Of course the model was a real oddity, which mixed both class 21 and class 29 features - but it started a interest that has continued to this day.
Anthony Sayer's book is a wonderful resource that has filled an number of gaps in information for me. I was particularly interested in finding out how despite the class's woeful reputation, Kittybrewster shed seemed to manage its fleet of 21s better, learning how to keep them clean and fettled so that they had slightly less eventful lives.
The other thig that becomes clear is that any talk about what could have been done to prolong their existence becomes academic when it is apparent that so many lines and so much work for Type 2 locos disappeared during the 60s that there was simply no case at all to persist with a small, varied and troublesome class of loco with no manufacturer support. Sad but inevitable.
 

simonw

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Funny how the foreign exchange was readily available for all the oil for diesel fuel (and for petrol for the vastly expanding car fleets), but not for some little electronic component for the locomotives.

Anyway, AAR is a standard, for various manufacturers to use, not some chargeable patent from a maker. The technical spec is published. I've often wondered how much the Southern Region EPB control is a variant of it, as both use 27-wire jumpers between units. It even does the management of which way the assembly is to operate after coupling up from different directions, which I understand the original English Electric Class 20 mu control missed, with amusing results. AAR spec here:

A fair number of oil producing countries were still in the sterling area at the time and so foreign exchange wasn't an issue.
 
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The twenty locos that were rebuilt with Paxman Ventura engines (class 29) were considerably more reliable and powerful than their unconverted class 21 sisters....but were not entirely unaffected by failures. Indeed the final conversion (D6108) was the first to be withdrawn - less than a year later - after incinerating itself on the West Highland Line. At the end of the day, the 29s were still a small non-standard class with a non-standard multiple-working capability, which were expensive to operate and maintain....and with the advent of the National Traction Plan in the early 1970s, which brought about the transfer to Scotland of the remaining LMR class 27s, the writing was on the wall for these charismatic and characterful locomotives which passed my house and school on a daily basis when I was growing up in Scotland. It was a nice touch that the final passenger duty for one of these locos was when 6119 worked the Royal Train from Faslane Junction on the West Highland Line - where she relieved 5382 and 5405 - down the branch to the Clyde Submarine Base on 25th November 1971. Her boiler then kept Princess Anne warm overnight, before the two 27s worked the RT back South in the morning, followed half an hour later by the immaculately repainted 6119 running light back to Eastfield depot....and I had a lump in my throat as I saw her slip quietly doen the bank past my school playground in Craigendoran - the last time I ever saw a 29 on the West Highland Line.

Thank you for posting such an evocative description. I never saw a Class 29, and growing up they seemed to me to belong to a long by-gone era. Yet, I was a pupil in that same Craigendoran playground less than three years later, and today three years seems but the blink of an eye.
 

matchmaker

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Wonderful! Any chance of posting a video of it in action on here?
I will, but I'll have to wait until I can get it on our club layout. Alternatively, I've ordered up a "rolling road" to run locos in so could run it on that to get an idea of the sounds.
 

Pinza-C55

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If you get the Trainz Rail Simulator you can drive the 29. Here's D6133 working a pickup goods past RAF Driffield on my Malton & Driffield route. I have a DVD "From The Fens To The Highlands" and it has some footage of Class 29s and the sound is the same as the Trainz model, a kind of throaty throbbing.

D6133 Driffield Airfield 5.7.22 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr
 
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