Class 319's Staying On The Thameslink!

[SussexSpotter]

Looks pretty much set in stone now that with the collapse of the GWML electrification scheme, that the Class 319's will be staying on the Thameslink route (Bedford - Brighton) and the second phase of the rolling stock project (NXEMU Next Generation Trains) will now not be going ahead. However what will this mean for the 377/5 fleet (the first phase of the new rolling stock project), will they stay with FCC or will they still transfer to Southern as they were supposed to and more brought in to bump up the fleet? Also the proposed depots at Three Bridges and Hornsey, what will happen to these sites now? + will all the platform lengthening schemes for the 12 car trains carry on as normal?

Useful Links:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/07/23-new-doubts-over-great-western.html

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gene...ation-looking-increasingly-unlikely-soon.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/railways-rolling-stock-cutbacks-network-rail

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/06/04-hammond-orders-review-of-new.html

“The new Thameslink rolling stock, which was to have been ordered in two phases, is also being re-examined. If the larger second phase, in particular, didn’t go ahead as planned, then we won’t have Class 319 units freed up from Thameslink to cascade to Great Western suburban and the north west. And if we don’t have the 319s to run to Oxford and Newbury, what’s the point in electrifying those lines so quickly?

“For that matter, we should be questioning whether we should be going ahead for now with all our plans to lengthen platforms to 12 cars, if we won’t be getting the 12-car trains just yet.”

 

[Aictos]

“For that matter, we should be questioning whether we should be going ahead for now with all our plans to lengthen platforms to 12 cars, if we won’t be getting the 12-car trains just yet.”

I disagree with that viewpoint simply because there's a number of services which ought to be 12 cars and by being so means more seats for passengers.

If the NXEMUs do have to be cancelled which I am hoping is the case (I'm for FCC to get their own batch of 377s, probably about 64 377s) then seeing as FCC staff are already trained on the 377s, it makes sense to keep up that knowledge.

Not only that but as they would be built at Derby or if they could be done at York as well then it means British jobs for British people which in turn would help the economy to recover.

In the meantime, by continuing the programme for longer platforms means more trains can be formed to be 12 cars and can call at more stations.

 

[Pumbaa]

Old news - and the NXEMU is separate from the HLOS 1300 vehicles as alluded to in at least one of the links. While GWML electrification looks doubtful, don't be too sure about no NXEMU.

We get to hear Hammonds idea for whats going forward and whats not fairly soon.

 

[Class377/5]

I disagree with that viewpoint simply because there's a number of services which ought to be 12 cars and by being so means more seats for passengers.

If the NXEMUs do have to be cancelled which I am hoping is the case (I'm for FCC to get their own batch of 377s, probably about 64 377s) then seeing as FCC staff are already trained on the 377s, it makes sense to keep up that knowledge.

Not only that but as they would be built at Derby or if they could be done at York as well then it means British jobs for British people which in turn would help the economy to recover.

In the meantime, by continuing the programme for longer platforms means more trains can be formed to be 12 cars and can call at more stations.

FCC won't be getting any more 377's. The first bunch of 12 car trains will end up being new stock but the second batch of units is looking more likely that they won't ordered. The process of awarding the trains is not on hold for the first batch.

Its too late to stop the 12 car works at alot of the work has already been started and abandoning it will cost more. Blackfriars is a good example of this and its gonna get 12 car platforms.

As for running 12 car services, the current plan is for 4x 12 car 377 in the peaks from December 2011 with more being looked into. (This is achieved by using 23x 377/5 and 3x 377/2 meaning peak usage of 24 units out of 26).

As for the first batch, something around 50-70x 4 car units is looking likely.

As for the TL trains being different from the HLOS, they added the first batch of units to the grand total so its connected to 1,300 trains.

The 319 may be kept with the Thameslink franchise but used for the stopping services. Passengers around the Sutton/Wimbledon loop may find after all the works they keep the 319 and have to change at Blackfriars.

But as has been said before its way too early to judge as there is still alot of work to be done before we know the sevice pattern and needed trains post KO2 in 2016. Descoping seems to be the key word lately.

 

[jon0844]

I like the bit about 'British jobs' by building trains here, but the trains that seem to come from Derby are always faulty! Is the boost to the economy on the one part more than the cost to the economy from the other?

Of course, the answer is to improve reliability - but can that be done?

If FCC intends to run more trains per hour through the core, we can't have 377s taking ages to change over, door problems and all the other things that simply shouldn't occur on a NEW train. That's what you expect from some clapped out train that has been poorly maintained.

I'd also demand (!) that if FCC built 377s for itself, they go for 2+2 seating throughout and - obviously - a nicer colour scheme. And ask for better materials for things like the disabled toilet. To go on a brand-new 377/5 and see and hear the door squeaking and then sticking was incredible. The train was just weeks old! Surely interiors have to be rugged enough to withstand years of, erm, 'use'. It would be an incredibly basic specification, even before you look at the mechanicals.

I'd also say that if the 319s got a total refit, including disabled access/toilets, air conditioning and all new seating then they'd suit just fine. They're nice and fast, and seemingly nowhere near their use by date. People want clean, fast and reliable trains - and the 319s aren't really a problem. If they do stay longer than planned, is that really a disaster?

 

[387star]

This also affects Liverpool-Manchester and with that Manchester-Glasgow services?

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting that the quote from Coucher (in the original post above) pours cold water on the 12 car platform lengthening for Thameslink, yet only last week NR announced that another 12 car lengthening contract was about to start.

http://rail-news.com/2010/07/22/amey-awarded-network-rail-contract-to-extend-platforms-on-c2c-network/

Maybe some of what was said in media interviews in early June wouldn't necessarily be said today, now that some of the dust has settled...

 

[Aictos]

I like the bit about 'British jobs' by building trains here, but the trains that seem to come from Derby are always faulty! Is the boost to the economy on the one part more than the cost to the economy from the other?

Of course, the answer is to improve reliability - but can that be done?

If FCC intends to run more trains per hour through the core, we can't have 377s taking ages to change over, door problems and all the other things that simply shouldn't occur on a NEW train. That's what you expect from some clapped out train that has been poorly maintained.

I'd also demand (!) that if FCC built 377s for itself, they go for 2+2 seating throughout and - obviously - a nicer colour scheme. And ask for better materials for things like the disabled toilet. To go on a brand-new 377/5 and see and hear the door squeaking and then sticking was incredible. The train was just weeks old! Surely interiors have to be rugged enough to withstand years of, erm, 'use'. It would be an incredibly basic specification, even before you look at the mechanicals.

I'd also say that if the 319s got a total refit, including disabled access/toilets, air conditioning and all new seating then they'd suit just fine. They're nice and fast, and seemingly nowhere near their use by date. People want clean, fast and reliable trains - and the 319s aren't really a problem. If they do stay longer than planned, is that really a disaster?

Maybe it's time to question why Siemens can deliver out of the box trains with few to no problems yet Bombardier deliver out of the box trains with numerous faults?

Talking of the 319s, I would say with regards to the seating that 2+2 would probably be preferred by most and if you look at the SWT refurb for their 455s, the proposed Southern refurb for their 313s and the WAGN refurb of the Stansted Express 317/7s then as long as it's done properly then the 319s could easily continue in service much longer then the DfT wants.

Especially as the refurbs mentioned above have turned crappy trains into brand new trains more or less.

 

[jon0844]

Exactly. Bar corrosion and other issues, I can't see why HSTs and MK4s can't be kept in service forever (not literally, obviously). To the end user, they're clean, comfortable and look modern inside - which is where passengers are.

The only issue on the HSTs are the doors, which could be fixed.

For the others, including the 313s, 317s, 319s etc - I am sure they could all be run for many more years if properly refurbished (beyond new seat covers and paint). What's more, this work would certainly be done in the UK.

 

[pemma]

This also affects Liverpool-Manchester and with that Manchester-Glasgow services?

The coalition has said electrification for the North West has been postponed. Electrification for the South West and a new Thameslink order are cancelled.

When electrification will occur and what stock will come is anyone's guess but most people are suggesting that when the TPE and Northern franchises are renewed they will include new orders of EMUs.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

The coalition has said electrification for the North West has been postponed. Electrification for the South West and a new Thameslink order are cancelled.

Where and when did the coalition say this exactly? We know that things are delayed pending the CSR (not a plug, but Comprehensive Spending Review ) but I'm not aware that the coalition has actually cancelled anything.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where and when did the coalition say this exactly? We know that things are delayed pending the CSR (not a plug, but Comprehensive Spending Review ) but I'm not aware that the coalition has actually cancelled anything.

You make a very valid point. A number of sources seem to get confused by 'postponed', 'under review', and 'cancelled'.

Since the election look at all those stories about Crossrail having various branches completely cut, are they still valid?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

You make a very valid point. A number of sources seem to get confused by 'postponed', 'under review', and 'cancelled'.

Since the election look at all those stories about Crossrail having various branches completely cut, are they still valid?

Nope! We have always been good at talking our industry down and it seems like we always will be.

 

[Pumbaa]

Its all under review with a few exceptions - the CSR as Kingfisher pointed out, better known as Hammonds value for money report.

CSR: Electrification inc NW, HLOS3, NXEMU, 319 refurbishment, (IEP)
Bin: New Desiros for LM/TPE, 10-car Windsor Line
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
CSR due October sometime.

CSR also includes a quick look-over NRs expenses and a few suggestions as to whats going to be done to trim it back into shape.

 

[Crossforth]

Can an operator not order stock without the DFTs permission if it is going to benefit their services and not going to cost the DFT?

 

[Class377/5]

Its all under review with a few exceptions - the CSR as Kingfisher pointed out, better known as Hammonds value for money report.

CSR: Electrification inc NW, HLOS3, NXEMU, 319 refurbishment, (IEP)
Bin: New Desiros for LM/TPE, 10-car Windsor Line
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
CSR due October sometime.

CSR also includes a quick look-over NRs expenses and a few suggestions as to whats going to be done to trim it back into shape.

The NXEMU are and aren't on the cutting list.

The first batch is still on and work is going on behind the scenes.

What isn't so sure is the extended services that would require additional units to run services, ie all those extra routes into Kent that would mean the next Thameslink franchise needs new trains to run through the core.

Good example of extra services could be the Maidstone trains which would require FCC/new Thameslink Franchise to get extra units at there isn't enough to cover the routes now and these kind of routes.

The coalition has said electrification for the North West has been postponed. Electrification for the South West and a new Thameslink order are cancelled.

When electrification will occur and what stock will come is anyone's guess but most people are suggesting that when the TPE and Northern franchises are renewed they will include new orders of EMUs.

Thameslink order has not been cancelled at all. Its still on. What is up for debate is the amount and configation of these units (ie 4, 8 or 12 car lengths).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can an operator not order stock without the DFTs permission if it is going to benefit their services and not going to cost the DFT?

The answer appears to be "No!" - I think after First bought some surplus HSTs the dfT got a bit hot under the collar about it.

 

[Aictos]

The only reason the DfT got upset over First buying some HSTs is that First can do anything with them so if they lost FGW, they could move the HSTs away and there's nothing the DfT could do.

 

[Crossforth]

The only reason the DfT got upset over First buying some HSTs is that First can do anything with them so if they lost FGW, they could move the HSTs away and there's nothing the DfT could do.

Ah I see

HSTs for TPE anyone?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I never even knew that LM and TPE were getting new desiro's? LM and TPE have just had a huge amount of new stock surely other operators need it more, TPE need it as the 185's are way too small. Went to penrith and back from sheffield and didnt have a seat either way (except preston to penrith on pendilino). Would like to see extra and new stock written into next franchises for north. When are they up for renewal?

 

[pemma]

Thameslink order has not been cancelled at all. Its still on. What is up for debate is the amount and configation of these units (ie 4, 8 or 12 car lengths).

From what I've heard the 319s will no longer be cascaded meaning any new Thameslink order will be to meet extra demand (something the Coalition said isn't there at present), not to replace the 319s. Why would they order 4 car trains to replace 4 car trains that are just to be moved to another part of the country?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I never even knew that LM and TPE were getting new desiro's? LM and TPE have just had a huge amount of new stock surely other operators need it more, TPE need it as the 185's are way too small. Went to penrith and back from sheffield and didnt have a seat either way (except preston to penrith on pendilino). Would like to see extra and new stock written into next franchises for north. When are they up for renewal?

Isn't your post contradicting itself a bit there?

TPE were due to get 60 3 car 185s with extra 4th cars to follow at a later date. The 185 order was cut and 2 car 170s had to plug the gap, while the 4th cars were never ordered. To add insult to injury TPE were ordered to additionally run Manchester to Scotland with the 185s they had so that the 220s could be used elsewhere on the XC network, meaning less strengthened services elsewhere.

The Yorkshire RUS addressed the lack of capacity on Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds and suggested either extra cars are added to the trains or an extra hourly service is added, with the latter preferred. New stock would have come in the form of the previous government's 200 extra diesel cars for the network and would most likely have been 172s.

However, then the electrification announcement came and 350s were due to take over Manchester-Scotland leaving 185s free for other routes - where the 350s would come from was unclear - whether it would be a new order for TPE, a new order of 350/2s for LM meaning a cascade of 350/1s or whether IEP would replace some of LM's 350s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah I see

HSTs for TPE anyone?

Then if First still had Scotrail it would lead to 185s and 170s to Scotrail, with 156s going down to the South West.

 

[MCR247]

First still have scotrail :?

 

[Crossforth]

First still have scotrail :?

Yeah, until sometime in 2014

 

[swt_passenger]

I never even knew that LM and TPE were getting new desiro's? LM and TPE have just had a huge amount of new stock surely other operators need it more, TPE need it as the 185's are way too small. Went to penrith and back from sheffield and didnt have a seat either way (except preston to penrith on pendilino). Would like to see extra and new stock written into next franchises for north. When are they up for renewal?

This aspect of the TPE franchise has a bit of a murky history, and it wasn't initially going to be 'new Desiros' for TPE.

It was going to be 'Desiros currently used on the WCML' to run the TPE Manchester - Scotland service, this was initially announced by DfT as part of the NW infill electrification plans.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....t.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rail-electrification.pdf

The existing TransPennine Express services between Manchester Airport
and Glasgow/Edinburgh are operated by diesel trains, running under the
overhead wires for more than 85% of their journey. Completion of the first
phase of electrification, between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows, will
allow through-train electric operation between Manchester and Scotland via
the West Coast main line. This new service will use modern, air-conditioned
trains which are currently used on West Coast Main Line services from
London Euston. These high-powered, four-carriage electric multiple units
have greater capacity than the existing trains, relieving crowding in key
sections of the route.

A later invitation to tender then seemed to make it a bit clearer, and the trains were now going to be new, added onto the (by then in progress) LM tender for more Desiros for strengthening their own services. At about this stage it was also announced that the route would be hived off into a new microfranchise, and would not be run by TPE.

It is that combined order that has now been postponed/cancelled/deferred* by the incoming government...

* delete as preferred...

 

[MCR247]

Yeah, until sometime in 2014

Actually that post maybe a bit unclear I meant 'First still have ScotRail' as a statement opposed to 'First still have scotrail?'

 

[Class377/5]

From what I've heard the 319s will no longer be cascaded meaning any new Thameslink order will be to meet extra demand (something the Coalition said isn't there at present), not to replace the 319s. Why would they order 4 car trains to replace 4 car trains that are just to be moved to another part of the country?

Its not about replacing the 319. TL needs more trains at its busy enough now. The question is is it just to replace the units currently on hire or will more routes be added.

4 car trains would be of a new design as there has been rumours that the bidders were asked to provide bids for 4 car units that could be linked up so that off peak services could be shortened as otherwise half empty trains would have had to be run at off peak times. This way better use of resourcing can be made.

 

[Minstral25]

If the 319's are not going (let's hope they are really) will the 377/5's be returned to Southern.

Southern are very short of stock, lot's of rush hour trains that should have 12 coaches only have 8 and are severely overcrowded. It's not a lot of fun standing in a 377 at 75-90 miles an hour when there aren't enough grips to get hold of.

If NXEMU is going to be reduced then a proportional reduction in Thameslink routes won't be that bad. I think it is overly complex already and needs simplification. Crossrail is much better with its simple destinations at either end rather than the plethora of Thameslink destinations.

 

[Fincra5]

Tbh rather than NXEMU they should just build more 377s, i assume most drivers on FCC are trained for them anyway, plus Bombardier already has the body shell setup

 

[asylumxl]

Southern are very short of stock, lot's of rush hour trains that should have 12 coaches only have 8 and are severely overcrowded. It's not a lot of fun standing in a 377 at 75-90 miles an hour when there aren't enough grips to get hold of.

And Thameslink is just as crowded, and has no 12 car trains. Getting left behind on the platform is no fun, and it's a regular occurence.

 

[pemma]

Its not about replacing the 319. TL needs more trains at its busy enough now. The question is is it just to replace the units currently on hire or will more routes be added..

As far as the Coalition government is concerned new trains shouldn't be ordered if it can be avoided and they state that Thameslink has not shown the level of growth that the Labour government stated. Northern and TPE have seen levels of growth above what the Labour government stated and the Coalition seem to still be delaying any order for extra carriages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And Thameslink is just as crowded, and has no 12 car trains. Getting left behind on the platform is no fun, and it's a regular occurence.

That's nothing like being left behind by a service because it's too crowded with the next service being over an hour away, like with some Northern and ATW services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

First still have scotrail :?

The post I was replying to was related to what First could do with HSTs if they lost FGW but kept other franchises i.e. a few years in the future.