Class 319's Staying On The Thameslink!

[MCR247]

No, I have been on an off-peak train that had 4 for S'oton and 8 to Bognor! I know we have been through this loads, but my point still stands. Trains down there may be busy in the peak but what about when Northern rail is rammed off peak?

 

[RobShipway]

I was under the impression that the extra TL services into Kent where going to be run inconjunction with SouthEastern, so would be using SouthEastern trains class 375, but when it gets to the TL boundary a FCC driver will take over the train?

 

[455driver]

Anyway could someone please tell me why a company that runs an 8 car 377 on an off peak Bognor run needs 23 new trains?!

Because it is cheaper than splitting it and running as a 4 car, then getting another driver and path so they can run the other 4 car down ECS (so it is in the right place later on), but hey lets pick on one service to decide if they need extra stock!

 

[MCR247]

Well wouldn't a company who's services are busy all day need the extra stock more?! ie Northern? TPE?

 

[Fincra5]

It is true that Northern and TPE need more stock, but so do Southern largely because they operate out of the most populated city in the country

 

[Class377/5]

I was under the impression that the extra TL services into Kent where going to be run inconjunction with SouthEastern, so would be using SouthEastern trains class 375, but when it gets to the TL boundary a FCC driver will take over the train?

No, the new routes would transfer to a Greater Thameslink franchise and use the new trains. Well maybe.

The reason for the current switch over at Blackfriars is to avoid changing the franchises. Note the Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink franchise around the same time. This is to allow services to change to franchise without any major problems.

Not true, ill go into detail about the centre door in a moment.
Read your above paragraph again, so how is it possible to access the end gangway door from in a carriage during a fire? the answer impossible.

Now the endgangway door was put in place as you say due to the nature of smithfield tunnel (single boar both directions) between farringdon and barbican(no longer in use), and the lack off space between the carriage side and the tunnel walls, so if there was a failure / emergancy the driver would put the ladder over the coupling and up to the front door. A little bit of trivia for you did you know there are ladders placed at some signals through the core route, now im not 100% sure of the reason why, but i think it was to save time, so if there was a fire, it would save time rather then having to go to the rear of the train to the emergency cupboard.

The tunnel between city and farringdon is snow hill tunnel.


again not true, fcc run 12 car 365's out off the cross . back in the days of silverlink they would run 12 car 321's all day long again no problems they were the same as a 319 all exept not bieng dual voltage and no emergency gangway doors..

True, I tend to call Snow Hill, Smithfield lately for some reason (not clever I know).

Im trying to remember where I found out they can't run 12 car trains through the Snow Hill tunnel. There was a reason, just been awhile since I got that info.

 

[MCR247]

It is true that Northern and TPE need more stock, but so do Southern largely because they operate out of the most populated city in the country

Which has had a load of new trains in the last 10 years. Granted to replace the oldest(?) regular use mainline passenger stock, and not very crashworthy stock, but pacers must be the most un-safe units now and at the moment TOCs are begging to get them they are that short of stock

 

[Fincra5]

No, the new routes would transfer to a Greater Thameslink franchise and use the new trains. Well maybe.

The reason for the current switch over at Blackfriars is to avoid changing the franchises. Note the Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink franchise around the same time. This is to allow services to change to franchise without any major problems.

Wasn't there the suggestion that when all the franchises end the DfT would combine them into one large frachise? It would be similar to NSE without that western bit

 

[MCR247]

I heard that but the SouthEastern, Southern & First Capital Connect franchise finish a different times. 31st March 2014, July 2015 and November 2015 respectively

 

[paul1609]

Which has had a load of new trains in the last 10 years. Granted to replace the oldest(?) regular use mainline passenger stock, and not very crashworthy stock, but pacers must be the most un-safe units now and at the moment TOCs are begging to get them they are that short of stock

Surely it would be simple to provide new rolling stock for the Northern Franchises all you have to do is bring the fares in line with the South East:

This would mean 100% fares increases in most Northern PTE areas with 50% elsewhere.
The introduction of a nationwide ban on off peak fares before 9.30 with Anytime fares set at 2X Off peak.
The introduction of a nationwide penalty fare scheme.
introduction of ticket barriers at all major stations-
Whingeing northern cities such as York and Sheffield could opt out but all tickets to and from those cities would be subject to a fare evasion charge of £5.
To avoid mode transfer a £8 congestion charge would be introduced through Northern and Midland City Centres...
Simples

 

[MCR247]

Why would it mean a 100% fare increase?

 

[ainsworth74]

Or for that matter a nationwide PF scheme or ticket barriers at all stations?

 

[Minstral25]

No, I have been on an off-peak train that had 4 for S'oton and 8 to Bognor! I know we have been through this loads, but my point still stands. Trains down there may be busy in the peak but what about when Northern rail is rammed off peak?

The 12 car section also runs as an outer suburban train for Croydon, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick, Crawley and Horsham - this part of the route they are often rather crowded and when only 8 car off-peak can have standing passengers.

In the rush hour they run fast through that section and the outer suburban trains are replaced with local slow trains which are totally rammed.

Personally I think there should be spend on providing decent train lengths for Southern, Northern and any other franchise that needs them to make the existing services work better than spend billions on High Speed 2

 

[pemma]

This would mean 100% fares increases in most Northern PTE areas with 50% elsewhere.

Do you actually know what Northern fares are or are you just making assumptions that they are all cheap? You can pay £5.70 return or £4.80 single for a 10 mile journey with Northern with extra for a bus service at the end being a minimum of around £1.50 single or £3 for the day, while £7.20 can get you all day London zones 1 and 2 travel.

To avoid mode transfer a £8 congestion charge would be introduced through Northern and Midland City Centres...

So you're planning to price northerners off both the road and the rail or are you proposing that salaries in northern towns and cities to be brought in line with the South East? It also makes no sense to use a London congestion charge price in the north when the roads aren't as congested as in London and where less public transport options are availbale.

 

[paul1609]

Why would it mean a 100% fare increase?

Well a Huddersfield to Leeds Anytime Return is £6.80, try finding a 20 odd mile anytime return on the Bognor Regis Line for that sort of money.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you're planning to price northerners off both the road and the rail or are you proposing that salaries in northern towns and cities to be brought in line with the South East? It also makes no sense to use a London congestion charge price in the north when the roads aren't as congested as in London and where less public transport options are availbale.

if we exclude central London it seems to me that salaries in Manchester and Leeds are at least on a par with most South eastern Cities. I think even Ken admitted that the congestion charge was a fund raising exercise. The charge has made little overall difference to Londons total congestion problems.

 

[pemma]

if we exclude central London it seems to me that salaries in Manchester and Leeds are at least on a par with most South eastern Cities. I think even Ken admitted that the congestion charge was a fund raising exercise. The charge has made little overall difference to Londons total congestion problems.

Entry level web developer is £15-17,000 in Manchester but in Brighton it's £17-23,000. That's only around a third more.

Well a Huddersfield to Leeds Anytime Return is £6.80, try finding a 20 odd mile anytime return on the Bognor Regis Line for that sort of money.

Hastings to Rye is £4.90 Anytime Return for a 19 mile journey - so again explain your logic for 50 and 100% fare increases in the north.

 

[paul1609]

Entry level web developer is £15-17,000 in Manchester but in Brighton it's £17-23,000. That's only around a third more.

Thats strange because all the vacancies on the web show £20-25k for manchester



Hastings to Rye is £4.90 Anytime Return for a 19 mile journey - so again explain your logic for 50 and 100% fare increases in the north.

Hastings to Rye by train is under 11 miles, half the distance of Leeds to Hudddersfield.

 

[Crossforth]

Am I correct in saying the Northern fares would be higher if there wasn't a PTE in West Yorkshire/ South Yorkshire/ Greater Manchester?

 

[pemma]

Am I correct in saying the Northern fares would be higher if there wasn't a PTE in West Yorkshire/ South Yorkshire/ Greater Manchester?

Yes they are much higher in areas like Cheshire and Lancashire.

The cheapest Northern fares are WYPTE fares, which are subsided through council tax collected by West Yorkshire councils.

Hastings to Rye by train is under 11 miles, half the distance of Leeds to Hudddersfield.

For some reason an online journey planner gave me the wrong distance for that. I agree your distance is correct.

However also consider,

Marsden (West Yorks) to Greenfield (G.Manchester) is 11 miles and £5.70 Anytime Return
Knutsford (Cheshire) to Northwich (Cheshire) is 11 miles and £5.30 Anytime Return

So even allowing for the wrong distance the Hastings-Rye fare still shows that fares can be cheaper in the South East compared to non-PTE fares in the Northern area, so should Southeastern fares also get the 50% increase you were proposing?

You've also overlooked the fact that Northern are one of the few operators that charge people peak rates for single journeys made at off-peak times, so they collect proportionally higher fares in the off-peak period because of this.

 

[Mojo]

The cheapest Northern fares are WYPTE fares, which are subsided through council tax collected by West Yorkshire councils.

And the £81.6m they get from Central Government grants too...

 

[pemma]

And the £81.6m they get from Central Government grants too...

Won't that also include Metro subsided buses and money spent on feasibility studies for things like a Leeds tram system and a Leeds trolleybus system?

 

[MCR247]

Well a Huddersfield to Leeds Anytime Return is £6.80, try finding a 20 odd mile anytime return on the Bognor Regis Line for that sort of money.

Ok I'll try I'm just downloading NFM06

 

[Pumbaa]

Well wouldn't a company who's services are busy all day need the extra stock more?! ie Northern? TPE?

You can't accuse me of bias when I say this - I live in Liverpool, have lived there before, have lived down south before and will do until October-ish, but I would agree Southern is in need of the extra stock. All franchises are, but I would prioritise the SE TOCs over Northern and TPE. Reasoning being increased economic incomings from the SE, higher gross level of overcrowding (Southern have a ridiculously overcrowded 12-coach train every 5 mins, Northern have a ridiculously overcrowded 4-coach train every 15 mins so on paper who has the worst deal?)

Its a difficult mess to sort out, but even on a crude CBA, or simple reasoning, I think SE TOCs such as FCC (TL) and Southern have a greater need than Northern and TPE.

 

[pemma]

Northern have a ridiculously overcrowded 4-coach train every 15 mins so on paper who has the worst deal

Ha Ha. Some people can only wish for a 4 car train every 15 minutes with Northern - for some it's a 2 car and if that's too full it's an hour before the next service.

You only have to compare Merseyrail services with Northern services to see why a frequent service attracts more passengers - some little stations serving small villages on The Wirral get one train every 15 minutes and it seems like the whole village uses the train - on the other hand a lot of people in larger towns who get an hourly Northern service can't be bothered with the train unless they have to get it.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes true. I'd love to get my hands on a reinvigorated northern franchise, with 20 years to do it, and free of Govt intervention. It could be a truly wonderful franchise, and despite the flak, we still must give Northern credit for the good they've done. Nowhere near perfect, but still.

And you're quite right - going North, I find it quicker and more options available to go from Liv - Preston via Warrington Ctl, Warrington BQ, Preston. Not to mention going anywhere else there are inevitably quicker journeys available (exception being Liv - Man where the Northern does it in 47mins via Newton, TPE and EMT do it in 52/54mins via Warrington).

 

[MCR247]

You can't accuse me of bias when I say this - I live in Liverpool, have lived there before, have lived down south before and will do until October-ish, but I would agree Southern is in need of the extra stock. All franchises are, but I would prioritise the SE TOCs over Northern and TPE. Reasoning being increased economic incomings from the SE, higher gross level of overcrowding (Southern have a ridiculously overcrowded 12-coach train every 5 mins, Northern have a ridiculously overcrowded 4-coach train every 15 mins so on paper who has the worst deal?)

Its a difficult mess to sort out, but even on a crude CBA, or simple reasoning, I think SE TOCs such as FCC (TL) and Southern have a greater need than Northern and TPE.

I never said you were biased, but what about when those overcrowded 12 car trains are overcrowded for around 4 1/2 hours a day whereas TPE 185s can be overcrowded most of the day?

 

[Pumbaa]

It was a pre-curser to avoid you accusing me of bias!

Off-peak though, 8-car trains can be overcrowded around London, just like 3-car trains around Leeds. It is going round in circles, all areas need more capacity, but given the choice between the two, I'd rather spend rush hour on a 2-car Pacer than a 12-car 377 thanks.

 

[Aictos]

Same for Stevenage to London via Hertford services, if they were extended to a 30 minute service by extending the 00 terminator though to Stevenage the I'm sure more locals would use it, nothing worse then needing to use the train off peak to find you've got a hour's wait for the next one.
Okay, it's partly to signalling as well as the track layout at Stevenage but it would certainly be a improvement.

I could say the same about the 2200 East Coast service during the weekday which should stop at Stevenage like the 2100 before it does.

As to services needing more stock, I'm going to just say that a bulk order of replacement stock needs to placed asap which would include extra carriages for both North and South TOCs so overcrowded 2 car trains can be lengthened to 3 or 4 cars, the majority of all LSE services will be 10 or 12 cars long in the peak with the off peak varying on demand.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northern have done a fantastic job to be honest, thats just the way it is