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Class 345 progress
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iphone76
Member
Thanks for the update.
700007
Established Member
I thought I was going bonkers that there were no 345s out today and that a lot of 315s were filling in for 345s.
Very good move and a huge thanks to whoever was responsible for this.
Very good move and a huge thanks to whoever was responsible for this.
samuelmorris
Established Member
This is going to be interesting with several 315s in storage and presumably no depot space to bring them back.
I wonder how long it's going to take them to change the design and apply it to all 42 sets of doors on each unit?
Can see today's level of disruption going on for weeks at this rate...
I wonder how long it's going to take them to change the design and apply it to all 42 sets of doors on each unit?
Can see today's level of disruption going on for weeks at this rate...
It doesn't bode well for plug doors on metro stock though.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
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Meanwhile, the latest plan for the takeover of Heathrow Connect in May is for TfL to take on the 350s and operate the service at 2tph rather than the planned 4tph.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Eh? That one plug door design is faulty doesn't bode anything at all for other designs of plug doors, none of which have that kind of problem.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I was about to say, that seems a bit kneejerk, it doesn't bode well for the Aventra but plug doors in general have operated safely for many years...
Don’t forget that the 800s were pulled for a day in the week of introduction due to Door software issues.
It may be an easy fix - if there’s a major safety concern/flaw, anything other than temporary withdrawal would be negligent.
samuelmorris
Established Member
A door coming off its runners doesn't really sound like a software bug to me. The mechanism shouldn't allow a door module, no matter how much the computer is addled, to actually detach by itself. The door mechanism does sound a little bit flimsy on the 345s - identifiable because all the doors sound slightly different when they open/close, it might sound rather petty but why should that be on brand new stock? It's a shame as the sound/pressure insulation offered by the plug doors is excellent, best in class for metro units I would say, certainly superior to Electrostars and 700s.
I wasn’t suggesting this was a software fault - I was drawing parallels between two new train fleet withdrawals early in their time in service; and how much of a non-event the other one turned out to be despite all the doom-mongering at the time.
The alleged mechanical issue on these Aventras is serious - operators don’t withdraw entire fleets lightly - but we don’t actually know the full details. Why are they coming off runners? Is it a design flaw? Is it a component not living up to its specified lifetime? Does it just affect one unit or the whole fleet? The answers to these questions - which we are unlikely to get - are what will determine how long they are out of service.
The “fix” could just be a more rigorous inspection regime; or a small stopper on door runners. Neither of which would have significant impact upon availability; and could see a return to traffic as soon as this afternoon in certain cases.
G_A_C_C_C
Member
360s?
So, Bombardier already have almost as many carriage orders for the Aventra as they built in 20 years of the Electorstars....and they're pants? And the 710s are supposed to be in service in May!!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think it's fair to say that the Desiro City has had more issues than the Aventra so far.
700007
Established Member
But the Desiro City had their issues rectified quicker. I do have major concerns for the following Aventra batches particularly the 710s now as I am to be using a double Aventra commute by the end of the year (oh yay (!)).
But come December it will be interesting. I honestly think the first week if the opening is not delayed (ES inside sources suggest this could happen, see yesterday's article) will be very shaky.
But come December it will be interesting. I honestly think the first week if the opening is not delayed (ES inside sources suggest this could happen, see yesterday's article) will be very shaky.
100andthirty
Member
Desiro City was not resolved more quickly than Aventra; both are works in progress and Siemens have been working on their challenges for longer than Bombardier simply because Desiro City was introduced into service earlier than Aventra.
All new trains suffer teething troubles, both systemic which usually are design problems and individual faults which might be a symptom of design or manufacturing/assembly issues. All suppliers and operators hope that test programmes identify issues and get them corrected, and indeed they do, but other issues don't emerge until they get far more extensive exposure to service operations.
There is a piece on the challenges of testing and commissioning in the February Modern Railways written by Ian Walmsley in his usual challenging style which is pretty accurate.
All new trains suffer teething troubles, both systemic which usually are design problems and individual faults which might be a symptom of design or manufacturing/assembly issues. All suppliers and operators hope that test programmes identify issues and get them corrected, and indeed they do, but other issues don't emerge until they get far more extensive exposure to service operations.
There is a piece on the challenges of testing and commissioning in the February Modern Railways written by Ian Walmsley in his usual challenging style which is pretty accurate.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
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Sorry, 360s.
Are we sure here? Class 700 was introduced in June 2016 and entirely rolled out ~12-18 months later in very large volumes.
Class 345 have had a handful of trains introduced and, currently we have 0 in service nearly 9 months after they were meant to be introduced. They also haven't got the ATO and CBTC equipment installed/tested yet.
This is after what seems like dozens of train failures over the past few months which has made the TfL rail service (once I always thought the most reliable train service I've ever used) into one of the most unreliable. Every morning and evening it seems 50/50 whether TfL rail will be broken because of a train failure.
I really like the trains and to be honest that's what makes it more annoying as it is so much pleasant on a 345 than a 315, so I am really keen for them to get this right but it seems one step forward two steps back right now.
Class 345 have had a handful of trains introduced and, currently we have 0 in service nearly 9 months after they were meant to be introduced. They also haven't got the ATO and CBTC equipment installed/tested yet.
This is after what seems like dozens of train failures over the past few months which has made the TfL rail service (once I always thought the most reliable train service I've ever used) into one of the most unreliable. Every morning and evening it seems 50/50 whether TfL rail will be broken because of a train failure.
I really like the trains and to be honest that's what makes it more annoying as it is so much pleasant on a 345 than a 315, so I am really keen for them to get this right but it seems one step forward two steps back right now.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I see your point, but not sure if I'm convinced. From what I heard about the 800s it wasn't anything particularly serious, it was only a small number of units deployed that hadn't started displacement of HSTs yet, and it allowed the resolution of some non-safety-critical defects.
In this case, 345s have displaced several 345s already, have been in service for 7 months not 2 days, and there are numerous units normally in service on a regular basis. To withdraw the fleet from service now speaks of an entirely different scale of problem to that with the 800s.
Agreed with almost all of this. The punctuality on TfL Rail used to put Greater Anglia to shame but now it's almost the reverse, the service really is quite poor. 315 failures are still common but most of the delays from train faults are from 345s and there's still only 40% as many of them.
samuelmorris
Established Member
At least one unit is now back in service on 2W51 (and presumably therefore 2C76 1824 to Gidea Park)
What's the latest?
What's the latest?
700007
Established Member
Just seen 345011 working 2W51 so I assume they're (unfortunately) coming back.
Annoying because I was enjoying a full day of 315s and am enjoying my 1800 service home.
A good day for Transport Focus to be handing out surveys at Liverpool Street!
Annoying because I was enjoying a full day of 315s and am enjoying my 1800 service home.
A good day for Transport Focus to be handing out surveys at Liverpool Street!
Wivenswold
Established Member
I could have posted this in a number of places on this forum but here goes.
What is the obsession with having to compare two very different types of new units to find out which is best or, more commonly, worst?
Is Television's current fixation with "fake jeopardy" and turning everything into a competition starting to worm its way into people's brains?
A recent example was the potentially interesting BBC documentary on Crossrail which was rendered unwatchable for anyone remotely intelligent because every job was "time and money critical" and "if it goes wrong could cost millions and delay the project......they've done it, good job because it had gone even slightly wrong it could have cost millions and delayed the project. Meanwhile at Whitechapel, work is underway to install the footbridge which if only a millimetre out could delay the project and cost....etc etc ...."
There's an office block in London that was built in the nineties, it was a revolutionary design and engineers still can't work out why the cladding on the top floor keeps liberating itself and crashing to the ground. So my house is clearly better because nothing has ever fallen 800ft to the ground from it. Time for a new thread where we can discuss which of the two buildings is better.
The Desiro City and the Aventra are very different products in very different operating conditions and have very different product histories, the only worthwhile comparison is that they're both being introduced to the network.
The only thing the issues with the 700s and 345s tell us is that new technology and design is often the victim of unforeseen problems and that things rarely go to plan.
Welcome to life.
What is the obsession with having to compare two very different types of new units to find out which is best or, more commonly, worst?
Is Television's current fixation with "fake jeopardy" and turning everything into a competition starting to worm its way into people's brains?
A recent example was the potentially interesting BBC documentary on Crossrail which was rendered unwatchable for anyone remotely intelligent because every job was "time and money critical" and "if it goes wrong could cost millions and delay the project......they've done it, good job because it had gone even slightly wrong it could have cost millions and delayed the project. Meanwhile at Whitechapel, work is underway to install the footbridge which if only a millimetre out could delay the project and cost....etc etc ...."
There's an office block in London that was built in the nineties, it was a revolutionary design and engineers still can't work out why the cladding on the top floor keeps liberating itself and crashing to the ground. So my house is clearly better because nothing has ever fallen 800ft to the ground from it. Time for a new thread where we can discuss which of the two buildings is better.
The Desiro City and the Aventra are very different products in very different operating conditions and have very different product histories, the only worthwhile comparison is that they're both being introduced to the network.
The only thing the issues with the 700s and 345s tell us is that new technology and design is often the victim of unforeseen problems and that things rarely go to plan.
Welcome to life.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Another on 2W53. You're not on the same train I am are you?
Wivenswold: I also gate when documentaries do that, drives me nuts. I was only thinking about it the other day as well!
700007
Established Member
Just seen 345011 working 2W51 so I assume they're (unfortunately) coming
1800 LST - GDP, you?
No idea why it has double posted. Sorry guys.
Another on 2W53. You're not on the same train I am are you?
Wivenswold: I also gate when documentaries do that, drives me nuts. I was only thinking about it the other day as well!
1800 LST - GDP, you?
No idea why it has double posted. Sorry guys.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Ah no never mind, 1754LST-SOV. Maybe next time :P
700007
Established Member
Haha nevermind. As regular users of the line it is bound to happen soon enough! I did funny enough see the 1754 Southend Victoria service.
When the 717s arrive later this year they would seem to me to be running a very similar service to the 345s. About 40 minutes on a suburban service and then into a tunnel. Will we be allowed to compare those?
Wivenswold
Established Member
I still don't understand the need for comparisons I'm afraid. Not everything has to be a competition.
Chris125
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Nov 2009
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- 3,144
The Aventra and Desiro City are competing products by competing manufacturers, how could it be anything but a competition?
samuelmorris
Established Member
A 345 on 2C12 and 345016 on 2C14 this morning but otherwise largely absent.
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