Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

[D365]

As originally posted by 365 Networker:

Withdrawal has now been confirmed by Great Northern in Modern Railways:-
GTR to stand down ‘365s’ (keymodernrailways.com)

The article does say that GTR will 'work with the Department for Transport' to introduce additional trains once the Gatwick Express 387s need to be returned. So, I suppose that could mean 379s being introduced or (my preferred option), with the 365s being re-introduced.

Nothing else to report at this stage.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As posted originally by 365 Networker:



Nothing else to report at this stage, I suppose that all I can hope for is a Fernando Alonso-esque comeback in two years (for those who follow Formula One!).

Given the 365's only have one diagram currently do they really need GATEX 387's.

My view would be send them back to SE as they are in far better condition than the 465's or if DofT had any sense they would allow 377's to return to Southern and allow the 313's to be retired.

 

[JonathanH]

My view would be send them back to SE as they are in far better condition than the 465's or if DofT had any sense they would allow 377's to return to Southern and allow the 313's to be retired.

Plenty of threads have confirmed that the equipment for them to run on the DC doesn't exist any more and hasn't for some time. Any suggestion of a move to Southeastern is a speculative idea that isn't going to happen and not for this thread which seems to be about the withdrawal plan / record of progress. Full details were posted here.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...of-class-365-fleet.189660/page-2#post-4173799

 

[Radley]

In case you did not know, from now up until May, there are two 2x365 workings on Mon-Fri (one in the morning, one in the evening).

1P05 0637 PBO-KGX
1P52 1805 KGX-PBO

The 1P07 0710 PBO-KGX and 1P50 1735 KGX-PBO are 2x387 workings.

This will be definitely something I'll be doing in the next two months, especially with brighter mornings and evenings.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably the only stock on the southern ECML these days that's not ETCS ready, so they would probably have gone as soon as that project got further than the Moorgate tunnels.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Plenty of threads have confirmed that the equipment for them to run on the DC doesn't exist any more and hasn't for some time. Any suggestion of a move to Southeastern is a speculative idea that isn't going to happen and not for this thread which seems to be about the withdrawal plan / record of progress. Full details were posted here.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...of-class-365-fleet.189660/page-2#post-4173799

Wasn't aware of that background so appreciate the link. Refitting shoegear back on isn't any great difficulty but the real issue though will be safety case to get them back certified for DC operation on SE routes by the looks of it. This of course is highly unlikely especially as there isn't the will in the industry there once was to make things happen.

Are they cycling the remaining units or is it restricted to one or two pairs now?

 

[D365]

Plenty of threads have confirmed that the equipment for them to run on the DC doesn't exist any more and hasn't for some time. Any suggestion of a move to Southeastern is a speculative idea that isn't going to happen and not for this thread which seems to be about the withdrawal plan / record of progress. Full details were posted here.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...of-class-365-fleet.189660/page-2#post-4173799

Thanks for providing that link. Exactly as you say, that is my intention with the dedicated thread here.

 

[TheGrew]

I would gladly have them over the 319s in Northern land. I suspect they are quicker and having stood in both I know which I would rather be stuck on during rush hour

 

[Hadders]

Given the 365's only have one diagram currently do they really need GATEX 387's.

My view would be send them back to SE as they are in far better condition than the 465's or if DofT had any sense they would allow 377's to return to Southern and allow the 313's to be retired.

There's no way the 365s will go to SE. It has been documented on here recently that 365s won't run on DC. Explanation here:

Government takes ownership of Class 365 fleet

No this was a fairly unique contract just pre-privatisation with terms that doesn't apply to most other stock contracts (i.e. that purchased by ROSCOs for TOCs). The only other contracts with similar porvisions are IET 800/801, Thameslink 700, all new build London Overground EMUs (378s/710s) and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[bramling]

Given the 365's only have one diagram currently do they really need GATEX 387's.

My view would be send them back to SE as they are in far better condition than the 465's or if DofT had any sense they would allow 377's to return to Southern and allow the 313's to be retired.

It’s technically 2 diagrams, as the service concerned is an 8-car.

However as things stand at the minute, no they don’t really need them. The current engineering work timetable is using 2x365, 26x387 and 4x700/0. They could easily shuffle things round and utilise a further 700/0 somewhere.

The current timetable however has no 12-car running on “domestic” GN services, and only two peak extra trips to Peterborough and a small handful of extras around Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn.

A return to stuff like 12 cars, Baldocks, more peak Peterboroughs, and the KX to Welwyn peak services and they will be short of stock very quickly.

I haven’t worked out what May requires yet, but I’d imagine it isn’t massively different to now. Virtually no 12-car working, no Baldocks, etc.

 

[D365]

I would gladly have them over the 319s in Northern land. I suspect they are quicker and having stood in both I know which I would rather be stuck on during rush hour

No need. You’re getting 323s soon.

 

[Dave91131]

Driving home from work just before midnight last night I noticed at least 3 rakes of 365's in Peterborough Nene Sidings looking like they had been "switched off" - no interior or tail lights on, PIS above windscreen turned off, too dark to see if pans were down but I think they were.

 

[A0]

Wasn't aware of that background so appreciate the link. Refitting shoegear back on isn't any great difficulty but the real issue though will be safety case to get them back certified for DC operation on SE routes by the looks of it. This of course is highly unlikely especially as there isn't the will in the industry there once was to make things happen.

Are they cycling the remaining units or is it restricted to one or two pairs now?

BIB - that's not really the situation. The question is, when there's already a bit of a surplus of 3rd rail EMUs around, whether there's any point in getting the case done for 40 x 4 car EMUs. Particularly given SouthEastern are about to get the ex SWR 707s - which in total will provide only 10 carriages fewer than the whole of the 365 fleet will, but overall are better for capacity as they are 5 car units.

So it's not about a lack of will, it's whether or not it makes any sense - and there are better alternatives than getting 30 year old units re-certified for use on 3rd rail which they haven't done for the vast majority of their life.

 

[Class 466]

Every Sunday until 25 April two pairs of 365s will be out all day on KGX - PBO workings - this is due to the work at KGX limiting TLGN services to platforms 9-11 (8 car only).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

BIB - that's not really the situation. The question is, when there's already a bit of a surplus of 3rd rail EMUs around, whether there's any point in getting the case done for 40 x 4 car EMUs. Particularly given SouthEastern are about to get the ex SWR 707s - which in total will provide only 10 carriages fewer than the whole of the 365 fleet will, but overall are better for capacity as they are 5 car units.

So it's not about a lack of will, it's whether or not it makes any sense - and there are better alternatives than getting 30 year old units re-certified for use on 3rd rail which they haven't done for the vast majority of their life.

Yeah I acknowledged that once I appreciated there was a safety case issue but my proposal was the 365's would release the 377's back to Southern and that should allow the 313's to be displaced.

Also just to go way off topic given govt are now footing the bill and taking all the risk they should be taking a holistic approach to stock allocation and I would shift the 701's to SE to remove the Networkers. SWR have enough stock in far better condition than many Networkers and with reduced demand they can do without 458's.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Also just to go way off topic given govt are now footing the bill and taking all the risk they should be taking a holistic approach to stock allocation

However the rolling stock leases are still between a private leasing company and an individual train operators (regardless of who funds them), some leases being protected by section 54 agreements.

Thus you can’t just move trains around between the operators without defaulting on your lease and the being hit with penalty payments. Who foots the bill for the lease is largely irrelevant - your proposal would work if as part of the ERMAs the govt had decided to take on the leasing of stock directly but they haven’t.

 

[A0]

Yeah I acknowledged that once I appreciated there was a safety case issue but my proposal was the 365's would release the 377's back to Southern and that should allow the 313's to be displaced.

Also just to go way off topic given govt are now footing the bill and taking all the risk they should be taking a holistic approach to stock allocation and I would shift the 701's to SE to remove the Networkers. SWR have enough stock in far better condition than many Networkers and with reduced demand they can do without 458's.

Going OT - so happy for Mods to split as they see fit.

But it's the TOC that's gone for the Aventras, so it's not a case of diverting away from SWR.

South Eastern have 25 377s which as you say would correctly cover the Southern 313s.

There are 36 class 458s about to become free when SWR gets their 701s. In 5 car formations as well - so could easily go to either Southern or South-Eastern. And they're newer again, in better condition than the 365s and are certified without issue.

 

[edwin_m]

However the rolling stock leases are still between a private leasing company and an individual train operators (regardless of who funds them), some leases being protected by section 54 agreements.

Thus you can’t just move trains around between the operators without defaulting on your lease and the being hit with penalty payments. Who foots the bill for the lease is largely irrelevant - your proposal would work if as part of the ERMAs the govt had decided to take on the leasing of stock directly but they haven’t.

Even if they had, the government would hold the least contracts and have to pay the leasing fees for the agreed term whether they used the trains or not. So in the short term it makes financial sense to use the trains that are leased rather than the ones the government owns!

I would guess that the leases most likely to expire are on SouthEastern, considering that franchise was due to end, so if they have been extended it may only be for a short time (but I doubt anyone knows or is able to saY). If there's a drop in commuting after Covid then I think it's more likely the Networkers will be taken off-lease and Electrostars from Southern re-distributed, seeing as Southeastern already similar units.

 

[365 Networker]

Every Sunday until 25 April two pairs of 365s will be out all day on KGX - PBO workings - this is due to the work at KGX limiting TLGN services to platforms 9-11 (8 car only).

Excellent! That should give me a chance to get a last few rides on them - as long as non-essential travel is allowed after the 29th March.

 

[samuelmorris]

Ah good, another set of circumstances that, ultimately, sees the premature replacement of serviceable EMUs with new units that weren't needed.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ah good, another set of circumstances that, ultimately, sees the premature replacement of serviceable EMUs with new units that weren't needed.

Yes a set of circumstances called Covid-19 which even a year ago nobody would have said what a total change to travel habits this would cause and thus rolling stock (in this case 387s) becoming spare.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes a set of circumstances called Covid-19 which even a year ago nobody would have said what a total change to travel habits this would cause and thus rolling stock (in this case 387s) becoming spare.

Covid-19 is a good explanation for withdrawing 365s. It's not a good explanation for them being replaced with new stock once the full service resumes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Covid-19 is a good explanation for withdrawing 365s. It's not a good explanation for them being replaced with new stock once the full service resumes.

You're making a massive assumption here that the full service will resume....

 

[bramling]

Yes a set of circumstances called Covid-19 which even a year ago nobody would have said what a total change to travel habits this would cause and thus rolling stock (in this case 387s) becoming spare.

People on here were expressing concerns about the fad for pointless new fleets long before Covid came to light. The situation with the 707s in particular is ridiculous, displaced before having even entered service, and still proving to be an awkward fit to rehome.

 

[samuelmorris]

Just thinking about it logically, it doesn't make much sense. The DfT (who will no doubt have the say in what gets ordered now) have gone off the Desiro City due to the standing room issues. They can't get hold of Electrostars any more, so that means if a new fleet is ordered to replace them, it'll be a separate microfleet unlike the rest of the units in the area. Exactly what they don't need.

 

[RealTrains07]

Ah good, another set of circumstances that, ultimately, sees the premature replacement of serviceable EMUs with new units that weren't needed.

Premature replacements have been happening alot recently. Long term isnt looking good for the rail industry with oversaturation of available units like the 365s coming off lease

 

[Class 466]

People on here were expressing concerns about the fad for pointless new fleets long before Covid came to light. The situation with the 707s in particular is ridiculous, displaced before having even entered service, and still proving to be an awkward fit to rehome.

707s have a new home, so the situation isn't all that ridiculous.

 

[Domh245]

Just thinking about it logically, it doesn't make much sense. The DfT (who will no doubt have the say in what gets ordered now) have gone off the Desiro City due to the standing room issues. They can't get hold of Electrostars any more, so that means if a new fleet is ordered to replace them, it'll be a separate microfleet unlike the rest of the units in the area. Exactly what they don't need.

I don't know if "gone off" is the right term. The Desiro city is still an entirely suitable platform, just not for the super crush loads around Clapham Junction that were a key part of the SWR franchise agreement. Other lines without the same super high loadings, and in a post-covid world where peak hour crushes become less of a factor would still perfectly justify a desiro city

 

[A0]

People on here were expressing concerns about the fad for pointless new fleets long before Covid came to light. The situation with the 707s in particular is ridiculous, displaced before having even entered service, and still proving to be an awkward fit to rehome.

But would the 707s have moved if Stagecoach had retained the SW franchise ? The way I read it was it was First / MTR that didn't want them for whatever reason.

I don't know if "gone off" is the right term. The Desiro city is still an entirely suitable platform, just not for the super crush loads around Clapham Junction that were a key part of the SWR franchise agreement. Other lines without the same super high loadings, and in a post-covid world where peak hour crushes become less of a factor would still perfectly justify a desiro city

Yet the class 700 - also a Desiro City - was selected for Thameslink where high capacity was needed due to heavy loadings and standing room on offer was a factor......

 

[D365]

Every Sunday until 25 April two pairs of 365s will be out all day on KGX - PBO workings - this is due to the work at KGX limiting TLGN services to platforms 9-11 (8 car only).

Must remember to look up what times these Sunday services call at Huntingdon (northbound). I don’t normally do farewells, but as I’ve written before, I did rather grow up alongside these units!