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Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

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33Hz

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I asked this before but is there any technical reason why two powercars can't be coupled to a 9 coach rake? Obviously one end would have a motorised bogie and the other not, and they would probably need to run a power cable to enable only one paragraph to be used, but other than that is there a fundamental reason why not?

DB showed that you do not need an interconnected 400 metre train to run through the Channel Tunnel. If I was Eurostar I would try to exploit that to run 2x9 car sets through and split to serve places where 18 cars are unneeded/unviable.
 
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physics34

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Is there any technical reason why two powercars can't be coupled to a 9 coach rake? Obviously one end would have a motorised bogie and the other not, and they would probably need to run a power cable to enable only one paragraph to be used, but other than that is there a fundamental reason why not?

they are old in high speed train terms....they are old technology. Probably cheaper to build new trains.
 

coxy

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All seems correct, though I have added some corrections in bold. Additionally, set 3017/8 is stored at Valenciennes, sets 3021/2, 3105/6 and 3208 (on its own) are stored at Dourges, and the powercars from set 3101/2, which haven't turned a a wheel in service for a good 15 years after a derailment, are stored at Long Marston.
The trailers are scrapped, but the powercars are due to be cosmetically restored and placed as "gate guardians" at the entrances of the National College of High Speed Rail campuses in Birmingham & Doncaster (i.e. one powercar outside each). Which powercar goes where, however, remains to be seen.



Many thanks for the update.

Regards.
Coxy
 
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I asked this before but is there any technical reason why two powercars can't be coupled to a 9 coach rake? Obviously one end would have a motorised bogie and the other not, and they would probably need to run a power cable to enable only one paragraph to be used, but other than that is there a fundamental reason why not?

DB showed that you do not need an interconnected 400 metre train to run through the Channel Tunnel. If I was Eurostar I would try to exploit that to run 2x9 car sets through and split to serve places where 18 cars are unneeded/unviable.

Just completely not possible! - There are many more jumper cables on a power car/R1 side than at the R9 (Coach 9 - R stands for Remorque which is french for trailer)... There are also many auxillaries that talk to each other from the R1 that are needed, so the tecnical requirements are prohibitive. The train is stupidly complicated as it is - Trying these things is just a no no im afraid. The amount of "fudging" they did to cram 4 trailers worth of stuff to other areas on the NOL sets was bad enough.
 

43096

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Just completely not possible! - There are many more jumper cables on a power car/R1 side than at the R9 (Coach 9 - R stands for Remorque which is french for trailer)... There are also many auxillaries that talk to each other from the R1 that are needed, so the tecnical requirements are prohibitive. The train is stupidly complicated as it is - Trying these things is just a no no im afraid. The amount of "fudging" they did to cram 4 trailers worth of stuff to other areas on the NOL sets was bad enough.

I think the original plan was to have split "long sets" for the North of London services. As you say it was technically impossible, hence the shortened NoL sets being built instead.
 

Class455

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All seems correct, though I have added some corrections in bold. Additionally, set 3017/8 is stored at Valenciennes, sets 3021/2, 3105/6 and 3208 (on its own) are stored at Dourges, and the powercars from set 3101/2, which haven't turned a a wheel in service for a good 15 years after a derailment, are stored at Long Marston.
The trailers are scrapped, but the powercars are due to be cosmetically restored and placed as "gate guardians" at the entrances of the National College of High Speed Rail campuses in Birmingham & Doncaster (i.e. one powercar outside each). Which powercar goes where, however, remains to be seen.

Pretty sure I saw 3105 at Gare Du Nord today?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Many years ago when I visited the National Railway Museum there was a Eurostar "loco", would that have been a mockup? If it wasn't a mockup, will that have been scrapped by now?
 

D365

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Many years ago when I visited the National Railway Museum there was a Eurostar "loco", would that have been a mockup? If it wasn't a mockup, will that have been scrapped by now?

It's been replaced by an actual 373 driving vehicle.
 

Peter Mugridge

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They had power car 3313 there during one of the Railfest shows about 15 years ago; might you be thinking of that? There was a 390 driving car next to it as well, from 390 043. Both were able to be cabbed by the visitors.
 

SpacePhoenix

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They had power car 3313 there during one of the Railfest shows about 15 years ago; might you be thinking of that? There was a 390 driving car next to it as well, from 390 043. Both were able to be cabbed by the visitors.

It would have been sometime in the 90s when I saw it there
 

Peter Mugridge

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Ah.

Bit sooner, then. The Railfest I am thinking of was in 2004 - I just looked through my old Combined Volumes to see when note (c) for cabbing got added to 390 043 and 3313...
 

33Hz

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Definitely cheaper to build new trains.

Do we have sources for this or is it just repeated speculation? Is it something that just applies to Eurostars because it seems a lot of other trains get mid-life rebuilds, including TGVs?

My suspicion is that the decision to buy new trains was an attempt to support the Alstom AGV that backfired when Siemens put in a bid they couldn't ignore. Spending a billion on new stock when you are barely turning a profit doesn't seem like sensible business to me, but then I will never understand the laws of French economics - witness the purchasing of unnecessary TGVs just to support the Belfort plant recently.

If refurbishing e300s / TMSTs wasn't viable, why are they bothering with a small fleet of them?

Just completely not possible! - There are many more jumper cables on a power car/R1 side than at the R9 (Coach 9 - R stands for Remorque which is french for trailer)... There are also many auxillaries that talk to each other from the R1 that are needed, so the tecnical requirements are prohibitive. The train is stupidly complicated as it is - Trying these things is just a no no im afraid. The amount of "fudging" they did to cram 4 trailers worth of stuff to other areas on the NOL sets was bad enough.

The additional jumpers from the power car to R1 are surely about supplying power and control to the powered bogie under that trailer, and hotel power to the train? Why would those be needed if you are just connecting a power car to R9? The control cables will be there anyway going to the usual power car at R18, which could still allow control from either end. Doesn't sound like a big deal. The R1 bogie could still be powered from its adjacent power car or have the motors removed.


I think the original plan was to have split "long sets" for the North of London services. As you say it was technically impossible, hence the shortened NoL sets being built instead.

As the trains are supposed to be able to split and run totally independently of the other half in an emergency anyway, this doesn't seems likely. Each rake (power car + R1 to R9, R10 - R18 + power car) is in effect meant to be a separate train. Why could a driving cab not have been put at the end of R9 and R10?

Seems more likely this was down to the understood regulation that one part of the train had to stop next to an emergency exit in the Channel Tunnel and all pax had to be able to walk through the train to it - which of course Deutsche Bahn was able to overturn. Had Eurostar or the authorities bothered to do this in 1994, maybe we would have had services to some more destinations.


It would have been the mockup then.

There is such a mock-up in Train World in Brussels. Maybe it is the same one moved there?
 

najaB

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Definitely cheaper to build new trains.
Do we have sources for this or is it just repeated speculation? Is it something that just applies to Eurostars because it seems a lot of other trains get mid-life rebuilds, including TGVs?
If you look at 'whole life' costs then once a rebuilt gets to anywhere near 1/4 the cost of a new train then it's cheaper to buy a new train.

The key factor is that assuming the stock is halfway through its absolute lifespan limit you get double the 'life' out of each pound spent today on a new train than you do on a refurbishment. Throw in the likely lower operational costs of a new train over that doubled lifespan and pretty soon it makes sense to make the bigger investment.

Don't TGVs often get moved from 'premier' to 'secondary' routes when they're refurbished?
 

Peter Mugridge

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Is it something that just applies to Eurostars because it seems a lot of other trains get mid-life rebuilds, including TGVs?

...............................................

If refurbishing e300s / TMSTs wasn't viable, why are they bothering with a small fleet of them?

Not quite; a lot of TGVs are being scrapped of types where some are also being refurbished. More than half of the TGV-SE fleet have been withdrawn while at the same time others are being refurbished. Nearly 30 of the TGV-A fleet are now no more as well.
 
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The additional jumpers from the power car to R1 are surely about supplying power and control to the powered bogie under that trailer, and hotel power to the train? Why would those be needed if you are just connecting a power car to R9? The control cables will be there anyway going to the usual power car at R18, which could still allow control from either end. Doesn't sound like a big deal. The R1 bogie could still be powered from its adjacent power car or have the motors removed.

Lovely in theory - just not in practice im afraid. Its not just a case of what it supplies, its how it talks to the rest of the train aswell. The jumper cables on a power car/r1 are slightly different than a r9 with the amount of different stuff it has to supply. Therefore just connecting a powercar to it and connecting it up would reequire all the cables to be modified/a lot of software to be completely rewritten - all "therotically" possible but borders on rewriting the train. Just not feasible. ALSO - to seperate a powercar from an R1 requires the train to be taken down to earth to a higher "Key" level (H if i remember rightly - was a fair few years ago!) - whereas the r9 does not require this level - fudging this part just isnt possible without a monumental rehash of the trains "down to earth" part - and that just aint gonna happen for safety reasons!

Unfortunately economics does play a part - the time/effort/man hours even planning this would be huge and just not worth it!!

It doesnt matter how simplistic the job looks - i can assure you it is not - if i showed you the wiring diagram between r1/m1 and the r9 - you would see my point! Its not only r1 motor stuff or hotel items as you call it - the m1 talks to the whole train at some level through its network, and thus trying to do what you ask is just simply not possible without a LOT and i mean LOT of time and money!
 

33Hz

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Thanks to all for the answers.

Don't TGVs often get moved from 'premier' to 'secondary' routes when they're refurbished?

Not quite; a lot of TGVs are being scrapped of types where some are also being refurbished.


Actually in this case I was referring to the rebuild of PSE sets that took place about 16 years ago at the 20 year point of their lifetimes, where there was a major overhaul of the electrics and top speed was raised from 270 to 300 km/h. This was done for the opening of the LGV Méditerranée route in 2001, so most definitely a premier route.
 

matty1014

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Quick side note, seems a Eurostar car has now ended up in Doncaster

http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/News/eu...or-high-speed-rail-prepares-to-open-its-doors

The 25-tonne power car, which used to whisk passengers from London to Paris and Brussels at speeds of more than 180mph, has been generously donated to the college by Alstom and Eurostar after it had been retired from service. The train will now have a new lease of life in Doncaster by playing a critical role in educating Britain’s next generation of engineers.

The power car - the classic original e300/ Class 373, or Trans Manche Super Train - arrived in Doncaster on the back of a low loader truck and was winched into place on a 700-metre length of rail track which has previously been donated to the college by British Steel.
 

XCTurbostar

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A powercar also ended up in Birmingham College today as well. From the article linked above, they sound like they have (or plan to be) gutted and the space inside used for another purpose, in this case, virtual reality.

Thanks,
Ross
 

sprinterguy

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There is such a mock-up in Train World in Brussels. Maybe it is the same one moved there?
I didn't think that the NRM mockup had been moved. There's certainly photographic evidence from as recently as late 2016 showing it adjacent to power car 3308 in the Great Hall.
 

XCTurbostar

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I didn't think that the NRM mockup had been moved. There's certainly photographic evidence from as recently as late 2016 showing it adjacent to power car 3308 in the Great Hall.

I don't think it has moved. A quick flickr search reveals THIS.

Thanks,
Ross
 
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