Class 387

[Wolfie]

@Wolfie. GX tickets are permitted on SN services always. But not V/V. The exceptions being on the peak trains which start/ terminate beyond Gatwick. Mainly where passegners board/ alight as (eg) Haywards Heath on a Gatwick Express service.

That may be the official Southern line. There have been MANY threads on here over the validity of that approach (and the fact that Southern ALWAYS back down!) - I suggest you do a little searching....

Advance tickets, such as Vic-BTN for £6 do not permit a break-in-journey and therefore if they tried to leave at Gatwick, as it cheap, they will be fined. AS that advance ticket is for that booked train (if applicable) to that destination.

I fully agree with everything you say.... I also note the pooh-storm that engulfed East Coast and SWT when they tried to apply such restrictions on ending short rigidly (again both the subject of past threads on here) and can guess exactly what would happen to GoVia Thammeslink if they try the same....

 

[sarahj]

In my experience the only extended GatEx service that occasionally leaves people standing from/to Gatwick is the 5 car 0850 from GTW, disruption excepted. If people are standing on other services then its because everybody is trying to cram into the middle 2 or 3 carriages of a 10 car train when there are seats elsewhere on the train.

Yup, the hint for boarding at Gatwick is not to follow the other sheep and wait at the bottom of the stairs and all pile on the same door. So many time have I gone through trains after Gatwick and its been, lots of seats, lots of seats....then packed silly, packed silly, lots of space....

And hint for the 442's in the peak heading up. Head to the back. You have to decide. Do I want a seat, or do I want a short walk at victoria?

 

[jon0844]

Are there suitable signs on the platforms to tell non-experts how long a train is, where a 5 or 10 car train will stop, where to go for first class, where the train ends etc?

I know which way the trains will go and come from at stations, can look for and see the stop boards and work out roughly where the back is from using other trains (or making a mental note of some furniture on the platform).

Tourists I assume cannot, so will stick together and not risk moving too far up or down the platform. And far too many people will rush to board and not even consider that they might have some time to board or move down.

St Pancras is a good example, where a train might arrive early going southbound and have 2-3 minutes to wait. As such, you can really take it easy to walk along the train and see where to find a seat, even walking back if necessary.

But do people do that? Of course not. They see the train and rush to get on (even those who try and get on before others have got off) and then sit waiting for it to go, likely cursing as they assume the train is delayed.

I am interested to see how the 700s and station upgrades will better tell people how to get on more effectively, as it can be quite fascinating to see how people act - especially at busy times when it's even more important to spread out.

 

[tsr]

Are there suitable signs on the platforms to tell non-experts how long a train is, where a 5 or 10 car train will stop, where to go for first class, where the train ends etc?

I know which way the trains will go and come from at stations, can look for and see the stop boards and work out roughly where the back is from using other trains (or making a mental note of some furniture on the platform).

Tourists I assume cannot, so will stick together and not risk moving too far up or down the platform. And far too many people will rush to board and not even consider that they might have some time to board or move down.

Platform staff at Gatwick Airport have access to radio mic PA systems which allow them to tell passengers on their platforms to move around as appropriate. This is usually a bit more effective than just leaving people to their own devices, but unfortunately the Gatwick Express platforms (5 & 6) seem to see this feature used less regularly, and people will of course also insist on running for a train leaving imminently and boarding at the closest door, when there's an empty one beside it leaving in 15 minutes. In addition, there is also the perennial language barrier - as demonstrated by what can at times be an almost-total lack of even a flicker of recognition at announcements warning of passing trains, even amongst those not talking or wearing earphones.

 

[jon0844]

Platform signs (or even signs hanging down from the ceiling) with symbols to help people might help. Along with posters with multiple languages to explain what they mean if necessary.

Or you do something akin to how trains can be shown in other countries, such as Germany, although you will likely need different display boards. Mind you, the ones at St Pancras are identical to many German ones, where you see a representation of the train carriages (including what they are) and where you are. You also need more screens then = more cost.

I guess nobody think it's worth doing any of that and it's acceptable to just let people pile in through one door and be squashed up with the rest of the train empty. After all, what difference does it make to the staff at Gatwick either way?

 

[ScotGG]

Multi-lingual signs definitely needed if not there. When arriving in a new city I will often stand where everyone else is, as with with heavy luggage waiting for airport trains I've had too many experiences of trains arriving miles from where I'm standing.

 

[jon0844]

Yup I did the same in Barcelona when trying to take a train to the airport (for the first time, having always used taxis before). A very long platform with loads of different length trains stopping, and seemingly at random places (to me).

As such, I stood with the other people with cases.

When the train actually arrived, it was a long train so I'd have been okay pretty much anywhere.

Thus, I can surmise that even some rail experts from abroad could act like ignorant fools when arriving in a new country and not having experienced how the railway system operates! (That's my excuse anyway)

 

[JaJaWa]

I am interested to see how the 700s and station upgrades will better tell people how to get on more effectively, as it can be quite fascinating to see how people act - especially at busy times when it's even more important to spread out.

The screens on-board the Desiro Cities and the Thameslink app will show the information I've attached. Perhaps they could also get some of these displays on the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks for that. I really do hope that all works as intended, as it's a great feature for the new trains. Great to see an example of how it will be shown (I don't recall that screen being part of the demo on the exhibition train).

Of course the GatEx 387s won't have any of that though.

 

[Class377/5]

The picture is of the mock up from Excel, just don't expect that to be the final system as it's not.

 

[southern442]

Platform signs (or even signs hanging down from the ceiling) with symbols to help people might help. Along with posters with multiple languages to explain what they mean if necessary.

Or you do something akin to how trains can be shown in other countries, such as Germany, although you will likely need different display boards. Mind you, the ones at St Pancras are identical to many German ones, where you see a representation of the train carriages (including what they are) and where you are. You also need more screens then = more cost.

I guess nobody think it's worth doing any of that and it's acceptable to just let people pile in through one door and be squashed up with the rest of the train empty. After all, what difference does it make to the staff at Gatwick either way?

You said it in your last point. If I was the head of a TOC I honestly wouldnt bother with posters saying "please move down" etc. because nobody cares or listens to them. I'm pretty sure that not many other people bother, and I can sympathise with them here. The only way to get someones attention would be to have big posters saying "IF YOU DON'T MOVE DOWN YOU ARE AN IDIOT" which I'm sure would be deemed unproffesional

 

[JaJaWa]

The picture is of the mock up from Excel, just don't expect that to be the final system as it's not.

No it's not. The mockups at Excel didn't have this feature. The image is from the working system on 700001 when it was demoed at InnoTrans.

 

[Class377/5]

No it's not. The mockups at Excel didn't have this feature. The image is from the working system on 700001 when it was demoed at InnoTrans.

Its not from a working system as that's still being built. Is simply a video that played. Your right tho it wasn't from Excel.

 

[jon0844]

It was clear it wasn't ExCeL given the view out of the window! Without looking at my photos, I think the screens in the original mock up were separate LCD panels joined up - whereas now it's a single wide panel.

 

[Aictos]

The idea behind the screen is useful, I guess something like it will be available on the platform as it be useful to know prior to boarding where it's likely to have seats available and where's it's sardine can time on the train.

 

[Bald Rick]

The idea behind the screen is useful, I guess something like it will be available on the platform as it be useful to know prior to boarding where it's likely to have seats available and where's it's sardine can time on the train.

That won't happen in the core. Too may on/offs for the info to be useful, indeed it would make crowd management worse.

 

[grid56126]

Well I finally bit the bullet now there are 14 diagrams in place. Covered all of them today and first impressions count. 4 of the 7 pairs I travelled on had the Star Trek bog locked out of use. These were just random observations of the set i happened to get in. Even if the other units on all the pairs I caught had them working that's 4 out of 14 not working and is pretty disgraceful for such a new build. Yes they are over engineered and yes there are teething problems, but this is not brand new untried equipment !

Anyway, one of the loos that did work got some praise with a lever lock. Yes it does the same as the button does, but it "feels" more solid and most importantly the uninitiated who have just landed at Gatnick or Looting theifports (baggage handlers) will know how to lock them up.

Anyway, the trains are tried and tested (377s etc) in pretty much all other respects so only point to add is that I like 2+2 - so much easier to get through and the seats. . . . Yep those seats . . .

I am - portly - and I love them . Give me a tombstone to sit on over the pathetic AM90s or the low down bouncy cushions of the 317/319/321 generation any day.

Inconvenient? http://grid56126.zenfolio.com/p773048280/h3f8fad94#h3f8fad94
387112 at Brighton http://grid56126.zenfolio.com/p773048280/h3c174943#h3c174943
387108 at Brighton http://grid56126.zenfolio.com/p773048280/h2bb55f48#h2bb55f48

 

[jon0844]

The first 377/5 I went on had a faulty door on the accessible toilet. Needed to be helped along to open and close. Must be a design feature to add some entertainment to any journey and a sense of adventure.

 

[Aictos]

That won't happen in the core. Too may on/offs for the info to be useful, indeed it would make crowd management worse.

Well pardon me asking the obvious question but if I'm stood on the platform at St Pancras heading to Brighton, how will I know where the more quieter part of the train is at that point?

Is it a case then of just board where you can and hope for the best?

 

[asylumxl]

Well pardon me asking the obvious question but if I'm stood on the platform at St Pancras heading to Brighton, how will I know where the more quieter part of the train is at that point?





Is it a case then of just board where you can and hope for the best?

I think the idea is to get people on and off as quickly as possible, then once on the move allow them to find a quieter area.

 

[grid56126]

It is all really quite straightforward.

Trains can already weigh passenger loads. So, as it's 2015 and technology is quite good, this can be used to trigger the on board screens to suggest where there is likely to be more space. This can then be passed from the train via various wireless means and be passed to screens on the station platforms to allow people waiting to know where to move to.

Of course in the cold reality of the real world, there will be a million reasons why this cannot be done and just like the introduction of "Real Time Trains" (etc) somebody traveling on the train will come up with an app to give passengers better information than the company can.

I look forward to being proved wrong in a couple of years time.

 

[jon0844]

Reading can save on the cost by just having signs saying 'there are more seats on this train - move along' positioned at certain places along the platform. Use a dot matrix font and it can look like amazing new technology.

 

[Class377/5]

Well pardon me asking the obvious question but if I'm stood on the platform at St Pancras heading to Brighton, how will I know where the more quieter part of the train is at that point?

Is it a case then of just board where you can and hope for the best?

By the time your train arrived from leaving either West Hampstead or Finsbury Park, you'd not really have that much time to move along the platform. Last thing you need is for large amounts of people to br running down the platform as the train comes in. Especially those with luggage or in peak.

 

[jon0844]

I'd rather hope I could walk along even a 12 car platform in the time it will take for a train to get from Finsbury Park or West Hampstead to St Pancras.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd rather hope I could walk along even a 12 car platform in the time it will take for a train to get from Finsbury Park or West Hampstead to St Pancras.

But what Bald Rick is pointing out a few posts above is that the data is useless in the core because it is expected that a large proportion of the train capacity is alighting, either having reached their destination or for interchange.

Unless the load monitoring equipment is clever enough to know which particular passengers already on board are now going to get off, it cannot predict the situation on departure from a core station.

However on the way to London, that can safely assume that the proportion getting off at an individual station is much smaller.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well pardon me asking the obvious question but if I'm stood on the platform at St Pancras heading to Brighton, how will I know where the more quieter part of the train is at that point?

You won't, unless you are a regular traveller.

Take the situation now. Every Brighton train in the peak arriving at St Pancras is full and standing, bordering on crush loaded. (Certainly those I took this week had over 50 people standing in each coach). A station 'how full' indicator would show all coaches red. But on arrival at St Pancras, a much higher proportion of people get off from coaches 5-9 than 1-4 or 10-12. So the space becomes available in 5-9, but there is no way the train can tell that before it happens. Also more people get in coaches 1-2 (for quick exit at City TL). So coaches 5-9 might go amber from St Pancras, but coaches 1-2 would be (very) red.

So anyone waiting at City TL or Blackfriars would be encouraged to move away from coaches 1-2, when these coaches will be practically empty from City TL.

It's even worse for the evening peak when trains are picking up people through the core.

 

[The Box Photter]

Bald Rick is correct. Seasoned passengers already know the best places to stand at their starting stations to maximise the possibility of getting a seat.

The in-train displays are very nice, but the fact that you can't see them until you get on won't encourage leisure or occasional travelers to spread out along the platform any more than they do now.

Watch the passenger flows at St Pancras, the regulars know which carriages to get on at their starting station so that they stop closest to the escalators. Northbound in the evenings, the same regulars know they've a better chance of getting on near the back of a eight car or 12 car train. The infrequent travelers or those wanting to make their once a year journey to Luton Airport or Gatwick don't move far from the escalators.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My observation is that most people are reluctant to move even part way along a carriage from a doorway let alone from one coach to the next. People will even stand in a queue on the platform trying to get on even when there is an adjacent doorway with no queue. I know at East Croydon it can be impossible to walk along the platform for only about two coach lengths because there are one or two crowds of people around certain doorways in my way.

You only have to try travelling North on the Victoria line from Victoria to see how many sheep there are. I occasionally walk up the Southbound platform to gain access to the Northbound platform further up. Alternative is to jump on a Southbound to Pimlico station then double back !.

My favoured solution is to have the platform entrances at different locations along the platform at different stations. This is so as to try and spread the sheep out. I don't think this is a problem that any train is really in a position to overcome. But at least the loading info can be used to help those passengers who want to find something better.

I think it likely that the problem is more common as trains get longer and longer. But demand vs track capacity dictates long trains.

 

[AM9]

My observation is that most people are reluctant to move even part way along a carriage from a doorway let alone from one coach to the next. People will even stand in a queue on the platform trying to get on even when there is an adjacent doorway with no queue. I know at East Croydon it can be impossible to walk along the platform for only about two coach lengths because there are one or two crowds of people around certain doorways in my way.

You only have to try travelling North on the Victoria line from Victoria to see how many sheep there are. I occasionally walk up the Southbound platform to gain access to the Northbound platform further up. Alternative is to jump on a Southbound to Pimlico station then double back !.

My favoured solution is to have the platform entrances at different locations along the platform at different stations. This is so as to try and spread the sheep out. I don't think this is a problem that any train is really in a position to overcome. But at least the loading info can be used to help those passengers who want to find something better.

I think it likely that the problem is more common as trains get longer and longer. But demand vs track capacity dictates long trains.

Another thing that I have noticed on the NYC subway is that some trains have offset door sets. This means that passengers who know they will alight on the other side of the train have to move down the car to the other doors.

 

[grid56126]

St Pancras Low Level will be by far the worst location outside of the peak traffic at Farringdon. (London Bridge in the future?)

St Pancras suffers from commuter flows but more so than the others, "normal" travelers, those interchanging to / from airports / Eurostar and just plain old tourists. These will be the biggest issue to holding up stuff in the core and the answer is desperately simple. Employ a few sensible people to stand near the bottom of the escalators to approach people looking bewildered and offer them the assistance they need and for them to have platform microphones and actively coral people. Just like on the underground, those who want to stay where they are, will, those who are a little less aware will follow the announcements. This is already in play at numerous stations on the LUL and works. yes it will cost a bit, but the cost in reduced dwell times will be saved day in day out and with the right people on the platforms instead of minimum wage contractors only there for the cash, it could make a genuine difference.

So it will never happen. An over complicated piece of too hi tech kit will be trialled and after two days of 2 - 3 minute dwells an agency will be approached to provide droids wearing big foam hands pointing to the other end of the platform .