Class 42/Warship question

[delt1c]

Different engines, transmission and horsepower. Various more minor differences, too.

37/9 and 47/6 (later 47901) had different engines yet remained as origonal class

 

[Cowley]

Regarding the grille / rubber surround next to the headcode, looking at my phot's and others both preserved loco's had them at each end until late '91. D821 had lost the A-end by early 1993 (but still had it in October 1991 after it had first been painted BSYP), and D832 the B-end in 1992 (presumably, when painted black). D821 then lost the B-end by May 1994 (when painted green), but the A-end of D832 hung on until it went from maroon to grey over the winter of 2010/11.

I can't say I'd ever noticed...

Good bit of detective work there.

 

[33017]

37/9 and 47/6 (later 47901) had different engines yet remained as origonal class

Yes, but they were conversions not new build.

 

[delt1c]

Yes, but they were conversions not new build.

yes but the 29 was a conversion from 21 and 31 was a conversion from 30 and the 13 a conversion from 08. Always found the class numbering under BR rather strange

 

[33017]

yes but the 29 was a conversion from 21 and 31 was a conversion from 30 and the 13 a conversion from 08. Always found the class numbering under BR rather strange

42 and 43 are like 45 and 46 - outwardly similar but different underneath.

One difference with the classes you quoted is all were converted before TOPS renumbering. This may have had a bearing as post-TOPS sub-classes were more easy to distinguish by number alone.

 

[MatthewRead]

Correct me if I'm wrong the class 42 warships were the first diesels to run on the Waterloo - Exeter line in 1964 and they were already about 7-8 years old.

 

[randyrippley]

First diesels on Waterloo-Exeter, and Waterloo-Weymouth were 10201/2/3. 10000/10001 were later transferred to the Southern as well and they all ran regular services on both routes.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D16/2
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D16/1

the first of the three D800 prototypes was completed in June 1958, the first production line loco, D803 appeared March 1959, while the last Swindon machine, D870 was was released to traffic October 1961. Note that some of the NBL machines were released after this, despite the lower numbers. I don't believe the three prototypes were ever used on the Southern routes, so in 1964 the main fleet would have been between three and five years old. Essentially there were a number of Warships going spare after Brush 4 machines were allocated to Birmingham and South Wales routes, cascading the Westerns to Paddington - Bristol / WofE routes and displacing the Swindon Warships


this page gives an overview
http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html

 

[Cowley]

Correct me if I'm wrong the class 42 warships were the first diesels to run on the Waterloo - Exeter line in 1964 and they were already about 7-8 years old.

As Randyrippley says,
they definitely weren’t the first diesels to work on that route.
In fact diesel electrics had been trialled (with a fair degree of success) for quite a few years before that.

Perhaps what makes the Warships on the West of England mainline interesting though, is the fact that when they started much of the line was still doubled, and they still called at (long closed) stations like Seaton Junction for example.
Also some of them were still painted in BR maroon livery, and were sometimes hauling BR green, steam era Bulleid stock too.
A few (though not that many) years later, they were (mostly) painted in BR blue, with matching blue and grey stock, and running on a much rationalised route which hasn’t really changed all that much since.

Warships ushered one era in, and another one out in my eyes.

 

[Ianigsy]

My copy of Modern Locomotives Illustrated on the Warships confirms it as a ventilation grille.

It looks as if from about 1965 (when the locos started to be repainted in maroon), the grille was either painted or plated over in a lot of cases- presumably a draughtproofing measure but possibly also to prevent corrosion, if this was found to be an issue? Some locos seem to have kept the black surround but on others it was all painted yellow so isn't always immediately noticeable. There's a 1994 dated photo of D821 with the grille removed but D832 seems to have been done later.

 

[randyrippley]

As to the question over why the class was split between 42/43, its worth remembering that there were at least two other examples of this.
Classes 03 and 04 were the same Drewry design with different builders, while classes 15 & 16 are different manufacturers commercialisations of the 10800 prototype

addendum
Of course with the Claytons you had the reverse: one body design, but two builders with two different sets of electrical equipment. But they were all designated class 17.
The suggestion someone made above seems to fit: where builds were split across manufacturers, the 1950's modernisation plan locos got different class numbers, while the later designs in the 1960's didn't.

 

[33017]

I don't believe the three prototypes were ever used on the Southern routes...

Quite a bit has been written to that effect but there are plenty of photo's of D800-802 on Waterloo trains. I suspect they weren't intended to work up there but they certainly did on occasion.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/42437565375/in/photolist-27E4BFD

https://www.flickr.com/photos/150400961@N07/28333651239/in/photolist-KaKnog

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/24173898463/in/photolist-CQaxNP

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2344276060/in/photolist-frMc3T-4za2AL

 

[randyrippley]

Quite a bit has been written to that effect but there are plenty of photo's of D800-802 on Waterloo trains. I suspect they weren't intended to work up there but they certainly did on occasion.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/42437565375/in/photolist-27E4BFD

https://www.flickr.com/photos/150400961@N07/28333651239/in/photolist-KaKnog

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/24173898463/in/photolist-CQaxNP

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2344276060/in/photolist-frMc3T-4za2AL

Those are interesting: they also put the lie to the suggestion I've read elsewhere that the first three were never fitted with headcode boxes: those photos clearly show they were

 

[33017]

Those are interesting: they also put the lie to the suggestion I've read elsewhere that the first three were never fitted with headcode boxes: those photos clearly show they were

The only hydraulic not fitted with headcode boxes was D6301.

 

[randyrippley]

The only hydraulic not fitted with headcode boxes was D6301.

even the D600's ?

 

[Cowley]

even the D600's ?

Yes they ended up with headcode boxes.

Not my photo

 

[Taunton]

Also some of them were still painted in BR maroon livery, and were sometimes hauling BR green, steam era Bulleid stock too.
A few (though not that many) years later, they were (mostly) painted in BR blue, with matching blue and grey stock, and running on a much rationalised route which hasn’t really changed all that much since.

I reckon that by about 1966-67 the stage must have been reached where the D800 Warships were equally one-third each of red, green and blue.

Someone will be along soon, I'm sure, with the exact details.

Always seemed a bit strange that starting in 1962 the WR, of all regions, let go of green locos and started painting their large hydraulics in (LMR) maroon.

In fact diesel electrics had been trialled (with a fair degree of success) for quite a few years before that.

Before my time; there are plenty of photos of 10101-3, and even 10000-1 on the route, but they seemed spasmodic appearences. Were there any other SR routes that the Bulleid diesels did more than an odd appearence on? The only time I ever saw them, all together, was in a line alongside Derby depot around the time of their final withdrawl.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Apparently the Bournemouth Belle was a regular assignment for the Southern trio and the LMS twins during the early 50s when all five were concentrated on the South Western main line, I also currently have in front of me a 1954 shot of 10202 departing London Victoria at the head of the Golden Arrow, can't be certain if that was ever a common working for them though.

I reckon that by about 1966-67 the stage must have been reached where the D800 Warships were equally one-third each of red, green and blue.

Someone will be along soon, I'm sure, with the exact details.

Always seemed a bit strange that starting in 1962 the WR, of all regions, let go of green locos and started painting their large hydraulics in (LMR) maroon.

Before my time; there are plenty of photos of 10101-3, and even 10000-1 on the route, but they seemed spasmodic appearences. Were there any other SR routes that the Bulleid diesels did more than an odd appearence on? The only time I ever saw them, all together, was in a line alongside Derby depot around the time of their final withdrawl.

 

[Cowley]

Apparently the Bournemouth Belle was a regular assignment for the Southern trio and the LMS twins during the early 50s when all five were concentrated on the South Western main line, I also currently have in front of me a 1954 shot of 10202 departing London Victoria at the head of the Golden Arrow, can't be certain if that was ever a common working for them though.

I don’t know how many times I have to wish for a time machine before it actually happens..?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Always seemed a bit strange that starting in 1962 the WR, of all regions, let go of green locos and started painting their large hydraulics in (LMR) maroon.

The maroon 'coaching stock' livery was instigated by WR General Manager Stanley (later Sir) Raymond (1962 - 65) who was brought in to deal with the mounting operating losses of the region. He famously ordered the removal of all GWR artefacts from the hallowed corridors of Paddington HQ, and also ended the chocolate and cream livery for coaching stock on named expresses. As BRB chairman 1965-67, successor to Dr. Beeching, he sacked Gerry Fiennes after the publication of ' I tried to run a railway'. To be fair, the maroon livery did suit the 'Westerns' , but sat very uneasily on the 'Warships'.

 

[Cowley]

The maroon 'coaching stock' livery was instigated by WR General Manager Stanley (later Sir) Raymond (1962 - 65) who was brought in to deal with the mounting operating losses of the region. He famously ordered the removal of all GWR artefacts from the hallowed corridors of Paddington HQ, and also ended the chocolate and cream livery for coaching stock on named expresses. As BRB chairman 1965-67, successor to Dr. Beeching, he sacked Gerry Fiennes after the publication of ' I tried to run a railway'. To be fair, the maroon livery did suit the 'Westerns' , but sat very uneasily on the 'Warships'.

Very interesting.
He clearly got things wrong.
But interesting nonetheless...

 

[Taunton]

The maroon 'coaching stock' livery was instigated by WR General Manager Stanley (later Sir) Raymond (1962 - 65) who was brought in to deal with the mounting operating losses of the region.

Raymond was only GM for one year, 1962-63, then Beeching put Gerry Fiennes in place as GM WR 1963-65. This apparently hacked Raymond off, who was moved to a sideline position on the BR Board, although he there ingratiated himself to the MoT civil servants and became Beeching's successor.

As BRB chairman 1965-67, successor to Dr. Beeching, he sacked Gerry Fiennes after the publication of ' I tried to run a railway'.

And was then sacked himself by Barbara Castle, Minister of Transport, the next day.

Serves him right! Ian Allan's autobiography describes how he, as Fiennes' publisher, met Raymond right on the day in question. The latter does not sound a pleasant character.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I don’t know how many times I have to wish for a time machine before it actually happens..?

If your wishes actually do come true one day Mr Cowley, would you please reserve a place in it for me also?

 

[delt1c]

If your wishes actually do come true one day Mr Cowley, would you please reserve a place in it for me also?

Knowing my luck if i found a time machine i would end up in the future

 

[Cowley]

Knowing my luck if i found a time machine i would end up in the future

You could end up in a dystopian future where the only trains are pulled by long lost Black 5s from the strategic reserve.

 

[Taunton]

You could end up in a dystopian future where the only trains are pulled by long lost Black 5s from the strategic reserve.

... and Crossrail still not open yet.

 

[delt1c]

... and Crossrail still not open yet.

And still bustition on the 69 line, sorry Goblin line