Class 465'466 Withdrawals - List Attached

[Mike1]

707024/707030 have had a reprieve and are staying with SW for the time being.

Edit: Does anyone know the status of 466014? It's my last one for haulage and if it's non-serviceable, I won't go chasing it!

It’s also the only 466 I’m missing!

 

[ScotGG]

I know this is a joyful moment to some of you but for me, I'm going to miss the 465/466s. If nothing else, they had character and the most unique sounding traction system on the whole network (apart from from the 323s).

They'll be Networkers around for many years yet it seems. Great trains but so many are in terrible shape inside. Except the 465/9s, which are the ones now being partly withdrawn - though some will stay.

Previously we'd been told the /9s had worse reliability alongside the /2s, but recently some said that wasn't actually true. If not, why are they withdrawing the best Networkers by a mile? They actually don't look like they'd been ignored and forgotten about for 20 years like the /0 and /1s do which are clapped out internally.

Is the decision down what leasing company owns what sub class?

 

[brad465]

They'll be Networkers around for many years yet it seems. Great trains but so many are in terrible shape inside. Except the 465/9s, which are the ones now being partly withdrawn - though some will stay.

Previously we'd been told the /9s had worse reliability alongside the /2s, but recently some said that wasn't actually true. If not, why are they withdrawing the best Networkers by a mile? They actually don't look like they'd been ignored and forgotten about for 20 years like the /0 and /1s do which are clapped out internally.

Is the decision down what leasing company owns what sub class?

IIRC correctly the same leasing company (Angel Trains?) is responsible for the MetCam Networkers and the 707s, so yes that would be a major reason for deciding these particular ones going off to storage. How a unit looks internally and runs in service are very different (although the 465/2s were poor in both, helping lead them off to storage first); the 465/9s as you say are best internally, but all the BREL Networkers are presumably the most reliable to operate, given the major traction overhaul in the late 00s, even though internally they also look poor.

This all goes back to the way the franchise has been awarded/operated over the years; Connex being terminated early, then a number of short-term contracts through to the present day has made no incentive to either give them a full mid-life refurbishment, or a complete replacement, only to do the absolute minimum necessary, such as PRM compliance and bring over a sub-fleet (707s) that happened to be available to patch over the worst.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I know this is a joyful moment to some of you but for me, I'm going to miss the 465/466s. If nothing else, they had character and the most unique sounding traction system on the whole network (apart from from the 323s).

I have had a few rides on 465s / 466s over the past few years and I am really struck with how nice they are. Really pleasant open and airy. Less claustrophobic compared to 377s and 375s and nicer than 700s. I don't mind the others but am really struck with how nice the Networkers are.

 

[ScotGG]

Some Networkers are. Others are dismal. Depends on the sub class.

The 700s are lacking any sort of character. Bargain basement feel inside.

 

[Mikey C]

The Networkers are a decent design. They might be clapped out inside, but that's nothing that couldn't be sorted with a major refurbishment programme. Indeed I'd argue that it would make more sense to do that (now the 707s are able to provide slack) and keep them in service for another 10-15 years.

 

[SolomonSouth]

How a unit looks internally and runs in service are very different (although the 465/2s were poor in both, helping lead them off to storage first); the 465/9s as you say are best internally, but all the BREL Networkers are presumably the most reliable to operate, given the major traction overhaul in the late 00s, even though internally they also look poor.

No, the 465/9s have higher reliability - here you can see they are approx 26000 miles between failures and BRELS are approximately 15000.

Here you go:

 

[Busman]

I have had a few rides on 465s / 466s over the past few years and I am really struck with how nice they are. Really pleasant open and airy. Less claustrophobic compared to 377s and 375s and nicer than 700s. I don't mind the others but am really struck with how nice the Networkers are.

Whilst I agree with your love of the Networkers, to say that they are less claustrophobic than the 377s and 700s is a step too far.

Some Networkers are. Others are dismal. Depends on the sub class.

The 700s are lacking any sort of character. Bargain basement feel inside.

Absolutely, I was beginning to feel I was the only one with the same thought process about the 700s. For a long distance train, they are pretty shocking.

 

[43066]

I have had a few rides on 465s / 466s over the past few years and I am really struck with how nice they are. Really pleasant open and airy. Less claustrophobic compared to 377s and 375s and nicer than 700s. I don't mind the others but am really struck with how nice the Networkers are.

Agreed. In my view the worst of the SE metro fleet are now the 376s which, although a decade newer than 465s, haven’t been touched since introduction (refresh pending). The networkers are indeed light and airy and not claustrophobic in the same way. The proper opening windows are also way better in the summer than the 376s’ slits, because the Electrostar body was designed for a/c.

 

[SolomonSouth]

I have had a few rides on 465s / 466s over the past few years and I am really struck with how nice they are. Really pleasant open and airy.

They don't have air con so get very hot on hot days.

Less claustrophobic compared to 377s and 375s and nicer than 700s. I don't mind the others but am really struck with how nice the Networkers are.

They ride much better than the 377s/375s but then again, the electrostars ride badly. I know that's an understatement.

They don't have the modern feel of a 700 but they ride better at speed than a 700 and don't have ironing boards, to be fair.

 

[Mikey C]

They're getting a bit tatty now, but the Chiltern 165s show what could have been done with the Networkers to improve them. A shame the 465/9s didn't get similar treatment when they were originally converted to run on longer distance routes.

 

[brad465]

There is an article in the latest RAIL edition where TOC managers talk about the need to invest in newer fleets and how the railway would be able to get by on reduced subsidies where this is done, and the Networker fleet is the main example used.

 

[Geogregor]

The Networkers are a decent design. They might be clapped out inside, but that's nothing that couldn't be sorted with a major refurbishment programme. Indeed I'd argue that it would make more sense to do that (now the 707s are able to provide slack) and keep them in service for another 10-15 years.

10-15 years? Absolutely not.

I have certain sentimental affinity with Networkers. Moved to London 19 years ago and almost from the beginning I was using them on a regular basis (with a few years break when I lived in SW London). I have a lot of good memories with Networkers.

I'm sure refurbishment could help for a bit but there is one major problem, lack of air-conditioning. With ever warmer and longer hot spells it is really becoming an issue. On a hot days Networkers are unbearable. For that reason alone I wish them to be scrapped ASAP.

Bad acceleration also hinders performance. They are painfully slow to start comparing to some newer fleets. Then there is reliance on platforms screens for the dispatch (which is ageing and in itself needs ever more maintenance)

In other words they really should go, the sooner the better.

 

[43066]

I'm sure refurbishment could help for a bit but there is one major problem, lack of air-conditioning. With ever warmer and longer hot spells it is really becoming an issue. On a hot days Networkers are unbearable. For that reason alone I wish them to be scrapped ASAP.

Lack of a/c is always going to be an issue, but they at least have decent hopper windows that allow circulation of air. As I alluded to above, I’d suggest the newer 376s are far worse on a hot summer’s day, with tiny and ineffective windows, as the Electrostar body shell was designed for air conditioning.

As an aside, when the 376s were introduced we were told that air conditioning simply wasn’t possible on metro units due to the frequency of stops. This was complete and utter nonsense, of course; it was entirely down to cost saving!

Bad acceleration also hinders performance. They are painfully slow to start comparing to some newer fleets.

They’re actually one of the quicker DC units, especially in MetCam guise, and being geared for 75mph will comfortably out-drag a 375. Also a lot quicker off the mark than ex BR 455s/319s, which had a single motor coach.

 

[Mikey C]

Lack of a/c is always going to be an issue, but they at least have decent hopper windows that allow circulation of air. As I alluded to above, I’d suggest the newer 376s are far worse on a hot summer’s day, with tiny and ineffective windows, as the Electrostar body shell was designed for air conditioning.

As an aside, when the 376s were introduced we were told that air conditioning simply wasn’t possible on metro units due to the frequency of stops. This was complete and utter nonsense, of course; it was entirely down to cost saving!

They’re actually one of the quicker DC units, especially in MetCam guise, and being geared for 75mph will comfortably out-drag a 375. Also a lot quicker off the mark than ex BR 455s/319s, which had a single motor coach.

Passengers might like aircon, but they're not going to replace stock just because of that. Besides a very effective air cooling system could have been fitted 20 years ago (as shown by the Chiltern 165s) if the money and will was there.

The Southeastern passengers might like new trains of course, but the much bigger issue is the reduction in frequencies in recent years.