Class 47 Acceleration and Braking

[Steve Harris]

But don't stop asking questions if you can't find the answers!

Exactly, as that is the time to ask questions !

 

[SolomonSouth]

Anyways the 47 is simulated accurately in-game. We can say that from looking at the responses to this.

 

[Ghawk2005]

Anyways the 47 is simulated accurately in-game. We can say that from looking at the responses to this.

Yes it is. From my testing anyway. Haha. As is the HST. The Class 166 however is coming in at around 20-30 seconds too quick to 60mph in TSW2 which is just behind a joke.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Yes it is. From my testing anyway. Haha. As is the HST. The Class 166 however is coming in at around 20-30 seconds too quick to 60mph in TSW2 which is just behind a joke.

Probs more than 20-30 secs too quick. They need to fix it. It also powered up to 100mph which I don't think it could do in real life.

 

[Darandio]

It also powered up to 100mph which I don't think it could do in real life.

It should considering it's max speed is 90mph. With the 10% overspeed test that makes it 99mph so 100 shouldn't be out of the question.

 

[Railperf]

It should considering it's max speed is 90mph. With the 10% overspeed test that makes it 99mph so 100 shouldn't be out of the question.

I have seen journey logs with speeds of 93mph attained.

 

[SolomonSouth]

It should considering it's max speed is 90mph. With the 10% overspeed test that makes it 99mph so 100 shouldn't be out of the question.

In fact after several minutes it went up to 120mph my bad lmao
It certainly couldn't do that. And max speed is 95mph or 75mph for some select units. Not sure which ones though.

I have seen journey logs with speeds of 93mph attained.

Was line speed 100? Presumably, because if it was 90 he was speeding and probably got fired without a second chance for speeding on the railway.

 

[Railperf]

Slight overspeed can occur due to under reading speedo. If every driver got fired for a 2 to 3 mph occasional overspeed..would there be any drivers left?

 

[36270k]

A few notes on Class 47 braking performance.
In the 1970's Class 47's loco brakes were quite good on freight trains with a vacuum braked fitted head.
The main hazard was underframe fires from brake block sparks on long downgrades.
WR Class 47's in particular were usually poorly maintained and notorious for oil leaks.
Class 47's were not fitted with sanders from new, sometimes they struggled in the autumn leaf season.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Slight overspeed can occur due to under reading speedo. If every driver got fired for a 2 to 3 mph occasional overspeed..would there be any drivers left?

Well I thought speeding was strongly discouraged. Plus speedo can overread. They seem to underread more often tho - they lag, not jump

 

[47827]

Most 47s never fitted with sanders which did lead to more wheel related issues. A few of the 57s that had sanders from conversion though came a cropper more often on bad railhead conditions as the wheelslip was still bad and the protection system kicked in. 601 was a bad un. Recall in its charter era when it came to a stand one spring morning on Old Hill Bank, in the West Mids, in a cloud of smoke. 12 coaches and a 47 switched off on the back. Overloaded but all 47s on the same load (and 1 extra coach) around that period made it up unaided and so that day it was pushed up from the rear and then shoved much of the way to Carlisle as the route was hilly. Sanders weren't enough.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Most 47s never fitted with sanders which did lead to more wheel related issues. A few of the 57s that had sanders from conversion though came a cropper more often on bad railhead conditions as the wheelslip was still bad and the protection system kicked in. 601 was a bad un. Recall in its charter era when it came to a stand one spring morning on Old Hill Bank, in the West Mids, in a cloud of smoke. 12 coaches and a 47 switched off on the back. Overloaded but all 47s on the same load (and 1 extra coach) around that period made it up unaided and so that day it was pushed up from the rear and then shoved much of the way to Carlisle as the route was hilly. Sanders weren't enough.

Well I didn't know that but judging by how much 465/9s wheelslip I don't think they have sanders either lmao

 

[70014IronDuke]

Well I thought speeding was strongly discouraged. Plus speedo can overread. They seem to underread more often tho - they lag, not jump

Ah, the wisdom of youth. This is worth a thread all on its own. But regarding speedometers, even in the 1970s, these were treated seriously IMX. Any report of by a driver of speedo over or under reading was enough to stop a loco for a check.

I never had a Cl 47 north of Leicester, but in the 1970s I had scores of 45s, mostly on the semi-fasts stopping at Loughborough. With 7-8 Mk1s (so apprx 245 - 285 tonnes gross trailing load - many of the Mk1s had Commonwealth bogies) a 45, if given a clear road by the preceeding Sheffield express, would get to 90 mph by around or a little to the north of Syston North Jcn and the driver would ease back the controller to about half power. So, from memory, this would be about 5 miles (?) from the start on fairly level track.

I never experienced a driver overspeeding when on the footplate to anything but 1-2 mph over line speed*, but a good friend told me he took a 47 on a St Pancras evening peak hour train in the 90s to 104 mph. I think this was around Ampthill or just north of the tunnel, around Millbrook. I forget the details, but I am in not doubt he was telling the truth, at least as he saw it on the speedo. My friend was not footplate crew - he was a ticket clerk at V .... (can't say, even though he's retired by a few years now!) .

* There was one exception, with a 45 and a Holbeck drver on a late-running down Thames-Clyde in the summer of 71. We went round some curves at 10 mph above line speed at Crosby Garret .... I forget, I think they were 70 mph, and the driver was quite confident at taking them at 80 mph. I confess, I was looking down at the bottom of the embankment and wondering ...

Such times, we can never do such things again today!

 

[SolomonSouth]

Ah, the wisdom of youth. This is worth a thread all on its own. But regarding speedometers, even in the 1970s, these were treated seriously IMX. Any report of by a driver of speedo over or under reading was enough to stop a loco for a check.

I never had a Cl 47 north of Leicester, but in the 1970s I had scores of 45s, mostly on the semi-fasts stopping at Loughborough. With 7-8 Mk1s (so apprx 245 - 285 tonnes gross trailing load - many of the Mk1s had Commonwealth bogies) a 45, if given a clear road by the preceeding Sheffield express, would get to 90 mph by around or a little to the north of Syston North Jcn and the driver would ease back the controller to about half power. So, from memory, this would be about 5 miles (?) from the start on fairly level track.

I never experienced a driver overspeeding when on the footplate to anything but 1-2 mph over line speed*, but a good friend told me he took a 47 on a St Pancras evening peak hour train in the 90s to 104 mph. I think this was around Ampthill or just north of the tunnel, around Millbrook. I forget the details, but I am in not doubt he was telling the truth, at least as he saw it on the speedo. My friend was not footplate crew - he was a ticket clerk at V .... (can't say, even though he's retired by a few years now!) .

* There was one exception, with a 45 and a Holbeck drver on a late-running down Thames-Clyde in the summer of 71. We went round some curves at 10 mph above line speed at Crosby Garret .... I forget, I think they were 70 mph, and the driver was quite confident at taking them at 80 mph. I confess, I was looking down at the bottom of the embankment and wondering ...

Such times, we can never do such things again today!

A 47? At 104mph? Damn!

 

[Darandio]

A 47? At 104mph? Damn!

Again, with the 10% overspeed that isn't unusual with a 95mph rated Class 47 at 104.5mph.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Turbo speedos are only accurate +/- 3mph

If one of our drivers was downloaded doing 93 on a 90+ line, they may get a comment from a DSM, but they'd not be "fired on the spot"

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In terms of speedo accuracy, is there any impact from wheel tyre wear? I imagine there will be some measurable difference between a loco or unit on max wheel diameter compared to scrap diameter wheels?

 

[70014IronDuke]

In terms of speedo accuracy, is there any impact from wheel tyre wear? I imagine there will be some measurable difference between a loco or unit on max wheel diameter compared to scrap diameter wheels?

There has to be, and I'm sure there was some compensatory mechanism ....... but it's 45 years ago now, and I can't remember. I just remember if a driver reported a speedo suspected of incorrect reading we'd stop the loco. Someone in here will probably know!

 

[tiptoptaff]

In terms of speedo accuracy, is there any impact from wheel tyre wear? I imagine there will be some measurable difference between a loco or unit on max wheel diameter compared to scrap diameter wheels?

It's quite possible. But as drivers we're not expected to know how worn wheels are and how it affects the speedo calibration.

Equally, a DSM who pulls a download isn't going to go to fleet and ask the exact mileage and wheel wear of the set and whether that means a 0.5/1/2/3mph discrepancy

We know that at some.point in the wear cycle, 93mph means 90. And as such the 3mph is accepted and applied at all times. And in turn we know by the time you're at 4/5mph+ over, you're definitely speeding and that's investigated

 

[70014IronDuke]

Again, with the 10% overspeed that isn't unusual with a 95mph rated Class 47 at 104.5mph.

Yes, there were certainly records of GN 47s in the low hundreds. Perhaps up to about 107 mph on occasion between York - Darlington, or down Stoke. Above 110 mph, I'd start worrying, seriously, about the traction motors coming apart.

 

[Richard Scott]

A 47? At 104mph? Damn!

Clocked one at 107 once, if want a serious speeder how about a 50 at 116?

 

[brad465]

yeah the 166 in the game is an absolute bullet lol

In Train Simulator I know there is a "hack" that if you put the class into reverse, fire up the throttle, then put the reverser into forward the acceleration to 50mph is considerably quicker than driving it from a cold start in forward. Given how weird that is I doubt it works in real life. This version also doesn't seem to have very powerful brakes, which I'm sure are better in real life, or need improving to match those of other DMUs.

It's been a while since driving a 47 in the game as I don't really enjoy them as much as other locos like 66s or 68s. I also struggled to get them to run the NSE GWML scenarios on time, especially the stopper service from Slough to Paddington.

 

[47827]

L

Yes, there were certainly records of GN 47s in the low hundreds. Perhaps up to about 107 mph on occasion between York - Darlington, or down Stoke. Above 110 mph, I'd start worrying, seriously, about the traction motors coming apart.

I can't recall every exact speed in the higher ranges I've had on 47s. Between 100-110mph certainly was included. Some such runs were actually on pairs of locos, including 75mph restricted RFD examples. The most recent incident was "suspected" on a charter between Carstairs and Carlisle with a pair in multi when the speedo was faulty and as I alluded earlier in the post we ran it in the same times as a Pendolino. That isn't possible at 95mph max. The downhill stretch dropping steeply off Beattock would have almost certainly be well into 3 digits and neither locomotive seemed any worse for the experience except for a hot smokey stench coming off them from going hell to leather on 13 carriages. I would never disclose the date here or full details, although the driver is retired now and the rather fast relief ex Carlisle isn't working on the job now either. One run over the Shap route on a railtour with a pair that certainly topped 100mph many years ago was throwing hot water urns all over the floor causing mini rivers to run down the buffet car and dents left in the toppled equipment.

Have to say I doubt you'd see any further action of this sort very often over the last decade+ or indeed going forward unless it's faulty measurement equipment or a driver's last ever shift (possibly if they feel naughty).

I've also witnessed drivers heavily drinking or having a few too many the night before an early start (and indeed guards). I didn't approve remotely but they were ex BR chaps who hadn't adjusted to acceptable standards so would probably not change very easily. I'm not going to name names or dates, of course, but this was still going on long after many people might imagine. A few speeding incidents have led to accidents over the years that are linked back to alcohol consumption.

 

[big all]

L

I can't recall every exact speed in the higher ranges I've had on 47s. Between 100-110mph certainly was included. Some such runs were actually on pairs of locos, including 75mph restricted RFD examples. The most recent incident was "suspected" on a charter between Carstairs and Carlisle with a pair in multi when the speedo was faulty and as I alluded earlier in the post we ran it in the same times as a Pendolino. That isn't possible at 95mph max. The downhill stretch dropping steeply off Beattock would have almost certainly be well into 3 digits and neither locomotive seemed any worse for the experience except for a hot smokey stench coming off them from going hell to leather on 13 carriages. I would never disclose the date here or full details, although the driver is retired now and the rather fast relief ex Carlisle isn't working on the job now either. One run over the Shap route on a railtour with a pair that certainly topped 100mph many years ago was throwing hot water urns all over the floor causing mini rivers to run down the buffet car and dents left in the toppled equipment.

Have to say I doubt you'd see any further action of this sort very often over the last decade+ or indeed going forward unless it's faulty measurement equipment or a driver's last ever shift (possibly if they feel naughty).

I've also witnessed drivers heavily drinking or having a few too many the night before an early start (and indeed guards). I didn't approve remotely but they were ex BR chaps who hadn't adjusted to acceptable standards so would probably not change very easily. I'm not going to name names or dates, of course, but this was still going on long after many people might imagine. A few speeding incidents have led to accidents over the years that are linked back to alcohol consumption.

Yes indeed I chose to "alter" my social drinking around 1992 when I think the level off acceptance of drinking on and of duty was further clarified and random drink and drug test were on the cards to be introduced?

 

[trebor79]

A few speeding incidents have led to accidents over the years that are linked back to alcohol consumption.

Eltham Well Hall probably the most notable example.

 

[big all]

Eltham Well Hall probably the most notable example.

Possibly more as a driver had to be alive to admit it or others have to be honest to provide an accurate conclusion?

 

[Railperf]

Clocked one at 107 once, if want a serious speeder how about a 50 at 116?

The RPS archive has at least one Class 47 run clocked at 112mph over several miles

 

[36270k]

Turbo speedos are only accurate +/- 3mph

If one of our drivers was downloaded doing 93 on a 90+ line, they may get a comment from a DSM, but they'd not be "fired on the spot"

On BR Southern in the 1970's most EPB units were not fitted with speedo's

 

[SolomonSouth]

Clocked one at 107 once, if want a serious speeder how about a 50 at 116?

That's some good speed! About the same as Deltic for the 50

The RPS archive has at least one Class 47 run clocked at 112mph over several miles

So slower than a 50 then.

In Train Simulator I know there is a "hack" that if you put the class into reverse, fire up the throttle, then put the reverser into forward the acceleration to 50mph is considerably quicker than driving it from a cold start in forward. Given how weird that is I doubt it works in real life.

Really? Imma try that sometime

This version also doesn't seem to have very powerful brakes, which I'm sure are better in real life, or need improving to match those of other DMUs.

A driver earlier in this thread said they were about right. I don't think they are too bad at all. DMUs (as a whole) often seem to have slow braking rates compared to EMUs.

 

[tiptoptaff]

On BR Southern in the 1970's most EPB units were not fitted with speedo's

Didn't realise that's what we were talking about...