Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

I am well aware of that.

In which case I don't understand your point.

 

[TEW]

701's may be driver open, guard close at this rate. They have supposedly been wiring up the GOP door close buttons because of disputes from drivers regarding guards not being safety-critical

Drivers agreed to take on full control of the doors on all SWR stock as part of their pay deal, subject to older stock being modified of course.

 

[Nogoohwell]

In which case I don't understand your point.

I think the point being made is that just because there is a published agreement in place, its highly likely that it could change, hence the original answer and mitigation planning.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the point being made is that just because there is a published agreement in place, its highly likely that it could change, hence the original answer and mitigation planning.

Why is it *highly* likely it could change? Genuine question.

 

[theking]

What a cowboy operation, they should have just ordered 710's or 20's rather than go for a completely bespoke design.

I'd understand if they they wanted gangway stock but a whole new design just for a smaller cab they're asking for trouble

 

[Nogoohwell]

Why is it *highly* likely it could change? Genuine question.

I dont think anyone close the railways believes the governments, unions or TOC statements or agreements at present. It feels like its constant panic and power building throughout the industry.

So when I say highly likely, its based on what we see happening, or in this case, not happening as until these units start operating, anything can happen, and probably will.

The only constant throughout this is that the tax payers bill increases with every delay, re-negotiation and change in policy.

 

[swr444]

I think the point being made is that just because there is a published agreement in place, its highly likely that it could change, hence the original answer and mitigation planning.

Exactly, I can't go into too much detail, but I'm just relaying information I've heard from various people in the company.

 

[Goldfish62]

Exactly, I can't go into too much detail, but I'm just relaying information I've heard from various people in the company.

Fair enough.

 

[Domh245]

What a cowboy operation, they should have just ordered 710's or 20's rather than go for a completely bespoke design.

I'd understand if they they wanted gangway stock but a whole new design just for a smaller cab they're asking for trouble

Neither 710s or 20s are suitable for the use case here. 720s are too long (with the outer suburban 'cram seats in' approach), and would not fit neatly into the infrastructure (200/24 = 8.33) - the 710s would fit more neatly but lose significant distance to cab space when running as a double formation (removing that requirement would have been useful!) plus of course internal refits.

Given one of the big selling points of Aventra was the ability for flexible configuration (when ordering) the responsibility is firmly on derby for failing to deliver as required, not on SWR (who are far from blameless more generally!)

 

[Bigfoot]

There's much chat about the time savings that could be made with driver close on paper and how long it will actually take in practice. The big saving is driver open once stopped. Closing is a smaller chunk.

 

[alf]

Try timing how long from “passenger doors close” to “wheels start moving” on SWR.
It can be as long as 15 seconds but usually 8 to 10 secs.

On Thameslink or the Bakerloo line, both which I also know well, it is ONE second usually.

So driver closing the doors can save 9 seconds a stop. That saves 15x9 secs per Shepperton single trip, equals 2 mins 15 secs.
Almost 5 mins per round trip.
That saves a 10 car train load of commuters in total 40 hours a day.

 

[hwl]

Try timing how long from “passenger doors close” to “wheels start moving” on SWR.
It can be as long as 15 seconds but usually 8 to 10 secs.

On Thameslink or the Bakerloo line, both which I also know well, it is ONE second usually.

So driver closing the doors can save 9 seconds a stop. That saves 15x9 secs per Shepperton single trip, equals 2 mins 15 secs.
Almost 5 mins per round trip.
That saves a 10 car train load of commuters in total 40 hours a day.

The impact is even greater at Vauxhall and Clapham Jn where the dwell time have major impact on the overall timetable. Cuts where have huge impact overall (e.g. ability to add extra services or increase the average speed within 5+ miles of Waterloo.

 

[spark001uk]

701006 is on the move from Feltham to Wimbledon pk.
.
5Q30 1148 Feltham Depot to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdg

 

[davews]

I did notice it in the yard this morning and had gone when I passed this afternoon. I assume it is coming back later?

 

[Bigfoot]

Try timing how long from “passenger doors close” to “wheels start moving” on SWR.
It can be as long as 15 seconds but usually 8 to 10 secs.

On Thameslink or the Bakerloo line, both which I also know well, it is ONE second usually.

So driver closing the doors can save 9 seconds a stop. That saves 15x9 secs per Shepperton single trip, equals 2 mins 15 secs.
Almost 5 mins per round trip.
That saves a 10 car train load of commuters in total 40 hours a day.

Some of the delay is the type of stock being used, it could be quicker but that means driving ignoring the company instructions meaning there's a risk to your safety record. Not worth it for a few seconds.

Also it's worth bearing in mind that someone was killed on the bakerloo at Waterloo because they weren't seen by the driver during the height of lockdown when platforms were quiet. It's not always good to save a few seconds.

 

[Bayum]

Also it's worth bearing in mind that someone was killed on the bakerloo at Waterloo because they weren't seen by the driver during the height of lockdown when platforms were quiet. It's not always good to save a few seconds.

But wasn’t the death attributed to the curvature of the platform and the driver being unable to see the passenger, rather than the driver trying to rush in and out.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's much chat about the time savings that could be made with driver close on paper and how long it will actually take in practice. The big saving is driver open once stopped. Closing is a smaller chunk.

Indeed on Southern getting the drivers to give door release on Electrostars transformed performance. Door closing requires interaction with despatch staff at all the high usage stations and takes as long if not longer than SWR door closing process.

 

[Towers]

My understanding from SWR staff with whom I've spoken in the past, is that their Guard's route knowledge standards are already very much station focussed, with a fair bit less knowledge than some other TOCs of the bits in between. That said, if they are to remain safety critical then route knowledge should be part & parcel of that, as it's rather difficult to discharge your Rulebook responsibilities for emergency protection without it.

This stuff should be pretty much industry standard of course, but in reality it does vary!

But wasn’t the death attributed to the curvature of the platform and the driver being unable to see the passenger, rather than the driver trying to rush in and out.

Something to muse over for when the "but the Underground does DOO and look how busy that is...!" argument next comes up

It's a different world down there.

 

[Goldfish62]

But wasn’t the death attributed to the curvature of the platform and the driver being unable to see the passenger, rather than the driver trying to rush in and out.

It was. A blind spot that had never been identified.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Long term the plan is for some 450 work to remain on Windsor Side services, whether that includes Reading I am not sure.

Probably. I don't see why not…or at least a substitution when needed.

 

[TEW]

Probably. I don't see why not…or at least a substitution when needed.

Ad hoc substitutions are probably going to be more difficult as Metro Guards will not sign 450s.

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed on Southern getting the drivers to give door release on Electrostars transformed performance.

Southern’s Electrostars were driver door release from introduction, replacing the slammers, so is there a recognised benchmark to verify such claims? given SWT had relatively decent performance for years with guard door release on everything.

 

[Goldfish62]

Could we please return to the topic in hand and avoid getting bogged down on yet another fractious debate on DOO/DCO?

 

[444045]

Can anyone help with 701 unit travelling on 5Q90 1053 Derby to Wimbledon Park today please ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[spark001uk]

47727 with 701030 today.

 

[444045]

47727 with 701030 today.

Thank you @spark001uk for your help.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Does anybody know which 701 is at Feltham sidings at present, according to RTT it looks like it arrived on Friday 24/09/2021 from Wimbledon, I went past today but I could not identify the unit number?

Many thanks

 

[Goldfish62]

Does anybody know which 701 is at Feltham sidings at present, according to RTT it looks like it arrived on Friday 24/09/2021 from Wimbledon, I went past today but I could not identify the unit number?

Many thanks

It was 006 at the depot for quite some time.

 

[spark001uk]

Does anybody know which 701 is at Feltham sidings at present, according to RTT it looks like it arrived on Friday 24/09/2021 from Wimbledon, I went past today but I could not identify the unit number?

Many thanks

The only one that was there before was 006, which went on a trip to Wimbledon Park Depot last friday. If there's one back in there now I would guess it was the same one went back again?

 

[Socanxdis]

Are they still testing it or training staff?