Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[pompeyfan]

What I find more than slightly surprising is that the DfT have allowed SWR to give up on DCO when it was previously agreed. Quite astonishing in fact.

The main method of operation will still be DCO, but metro guards will work trains occasionally.

I believe there has been a change of plan as initially metro guards wouldn’t work Desiros, but for diversionary routes and service recovery purposes it’s now suggested that they will still work desiros as well as maintain competency on 701s.

How do GA guards maintain competency on Flirts? Do they work them on an Adhoc basis or are there running turns which specify they work the train?

The initial agreement made in 2021 was that guard's would not be trained on door operation on 701s, then as older stock was phased out Metro Guard's would work solely 701s and lose dispatch competency entirely.
In 2022 it was agreed that guard's would initially be trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working. This was time limited until May 2023, at which point Metro Guard's would lose dispatch competency.
SWR are now proposing that guard's are trained on door operation on 701s for use in degraded working indefinitely.

Ah it came across earlier in the thread they were going to be fully guard dispatched, which is different.

 

[TEW]

What I find more than slightly surprising is that the DfT have allowed SWR to give up on DCO when it was previously agreed. Quite astonishing in fact.

Given the fight and cost to get DCO agreed it is rather surprising.

 

[Goldfish62]

Given the fight and cost to get DCO agreed it is rather surprising.

Yes, 27 days of strike action over a two year period with consequential loss of earnings for staff and disruption for passengers was, it now seems, totally unnecessary.

 

[387star]

Yes, 27 days of strike action over a two year period with consequential loss of earnings for staff and disruption for passengers was, it now seems, totally unnecessary.

Greater Anglia Guards reached the same deal a long time ago

 

[Goldfish62]

Greater Anglia Guards reached the same deal a long time ago

As did SWR, but if the comments on this thread are accurate it no longer wants that deal.

 

[InOban]

Where are the guards panel (s) fitted? I thought that a major point of DCO was to ensure that the guard wasn't tied to particular locations.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where are the guards panel (s) fitted? I thought that a major point of DCO was to ensure that the guard wasn't tied to particular locations.

I'm sure I read it's one pair per carriage, as with the 455s.

 

[pompeyfan]

Where are the guards panel (s) fitted? I thought that a major point of DCO was to ensure that the guard wasn't tied to particular locations.

They’re diagonally opposite in each carriage, although the guard will have to be wary or PTI risks if they’re dispatching, so will have to be in a suitable coach depending on platform curvature etc

 

[TEW]

As did SWR, but if the comments on this thread are accurate it no longer wants that deal.

The original SWR and Greater Anglia deals are different. What SWR are proposing now is basically what Greater Anglia have in place on their services with a guard. A deal which was reached far quicker than on SWR.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The original SWR and Greater Anglia deals are different. What SWR are proposing now is basically what Greater Anglia have in place on their services with a guard. A deal which was reached far quicker than on SWR.

indeed and in an operation where 70%+ services are DOO already. SWR and its previous incarnations have been thwarted in bringing DOO in several times already now even a half baked solution is kicked into the long grass.

 

[Goldfish62]

The original SWR and Greater Anglia deals are different. What SWR are proposing now is basically what Greater Anglia have in place on their services with a guard. A deal which was reached far quicker than on SWR.

Not really. Greater Anglia is full DCO. The guards have no role in door operation. That is what was planned with the 701s on SWR but apparently now isn't.

indeed and in an operation where 70%+ services are DOO already. SWR and its previous incarnations have been thwarted in bringing DOO in several times already now even a half baked solution is kicked into the long grass.

The South Western certainly since the 60s and probably before has had a reputation for "militancy", however you might interpret that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The network doesn't require the time savings that dco supposedly would bring anymore.

Why doesn’t it need it anymore?

 

[Mainsideman]

Not really. Greater Anglia is full DCO. The guards have no role in door operation. That is what was planned with the 701s on SWR but apparently now isn't.

Greater anglia guards are door trained for degraded working etc.

 

[swr444]

Not really. Greater Anglia is full DCO. The guards have no role in door operation. That is what was planned with the 701s on SWR but apparently now isn't.

They do, My friend was a guard with them and did degraded working on 745s.

 

[Stew27005]

701021 on 5Q50 this morning.

 

[Towers]

Why doesn’t it need it anymore?

For the same reason that SWR has been able to offload an entire suburban fleet without replacement (the 456s) presumably; fewer passengers and fewer services.

I would imagine that at this point SWR are keen to just get the things into service as soon as possible. If the wider climate means that previously anticipated modes of operation are no longer required, and not introducing them means a time saving in training and so on, then clearly it makes sense not to introduce them. I would hazard a guess that driver training is significantly quicker if you omit the need to train an entire company to operate doors when they have never done so before, as well as how to deal with the automatic door opening system, fault finding, manual override etc etc etc. The current benefits of leaving all that aside are fairly plain to see if it just isn’t needed.

 

[vikingdriver]

For the same reason that SWR has been able to offload an entire suburban fleet without replacement (the 456s) presumably; fewer passengers and fewer services.

I would imagine that at this point SWR are keen to just get the things into service as soon as possible. If the wider climate means that previously anticipated modes of operation are no longer required, and not introducing them means a time saving in training and so on, then clearly it makes sense not to introduce them. I would hazard a guess that driver training is significantly quicker if you omit the need to train an entire company to operate doors when they have never done so before, as well as how to deal with the automatic door opening system, fault finding, manual override etc etc etc. The current benefits of leaving all that aside are fairly plain to see if it just isn’t needed.

Though someone stated above this was for during degraded working situations, unless I misread, so presumably if that is correct then the training for drivers would still need to happen.

 

[Goldfish62]

I would imagine that at this point SWR are keen to just get the things into service as soon as possible. If the wider climate means that previously anticipated modes of operation are no longer required, and not introducing them means a time saving in training and so on, then clearly it makes sense not to introduce them. I would hazard a guess that driver training is significantly quicker if you omit the need to train an entire company to operate doors when they have never done so before, as well as how to deal with the automatic door opening system, fault finding, manual override etc etc etc. The current benefits of leaving all that aside are fairly plain to see if it just isn’t needed.

Makes prefect sense. I imagine it would speed up training considerably.

 

[Dan G]

I guess this discussion indicates that the software issues have been resolved

 

[Towers]

Though someone stated above this was for during degraded working situations, unless I misread, so presumably if that is correct then the training for drivers would still need to happen.

Indeed, if that’s the case then it’s a different situation!

 

[Fazaar1889]

Apologies but what does a door guard do? Do they just stand by the doors and press the button to open them? Seems a little silly...

 

[Carlisle]

Apologies but what does a door guard do? Do they just stand by the doors and press the button to open them? Seems a little silly...

If I understand correctly from the comments on here the 701s will always be driver door release, but guard or driver close depending on what a particular service is booked for .

 

[Fazaar1889]

If I understand correctly from the comments on here the 701s will always be driver door release, but guard or driver close depending on what a particular service is booked for .

...what does that mean...?

 

[py_megapixel]

...what does that mean...?

After the train stops in a station, the doors are "released". This means that the buttons are enabled which the passengers can use to open the doors. (You can tell this has happened because the buttons light up and a beeping noise sounds).

On South Western Railway trains, there are two members of staff on board: the guard (working mostly in the passenger area), and the driver (working in the driving cab). Either of them could in theory release the doors, which they do by pressing a button on a control panel, either in the driving cab in the case of the driver, or in a small cupboard next to the doors in the case of the guard. There is then a similar button which is used to close the doors once the train is ready to depart and disable the passenger buttons. Of course releasing and closing the doors is only done once it has been deemed safe to do so.

The post above is referring to the fact that on South Western Railway 701s, the guard will sometimes be responsible for closing the doors, while the driver will always be responsible for releasing the doors and sometimes also for closing the doors.

 

[Fazaar1889]

After the train stops in a station, the doors are "released". This means that the buttons are enabled which the passengers can use to open the doors. (You can tell this has happened because the buttons light up and a beeping noise sounds).

On South Western Railway trains, there are two members of staff on board: the guard (working mostly in the passenger area), and the driver (working in the driving cab). Either of them could in theory release the doors, which they do by pressing a button on a control panel, either in the driving cab in the case of the driver, or in a small cupboard next to the doors in the case of the guard. There is then a similar button which is used to close the doors once the train is ready to depart and disable the passenger buttons. Of course releasing and closing the doors is only done once it has been deemed safe to do so.

The post above is referring to the fact that on South Western Railway 701s, the guard will sometimes be responsible for closing the doors, while the driver will always be responsible for releasing the doors and sometimes also for closing the doors.

Thank you! Why is that a bad thing? Post #5,888 implies this is silly?

 

[Dan G]

Because the RMT spent three years (or more?) going on strike on the SWR over DOO before accepting it, but now SWR isn't going to use DOO on the 701s. Union members voted to accept the following:

SWR will be introducing a new fleet of Arterio trains on the suburban parts of the network in 2021 and
2022. The trains are developed with the customer centre of mind and specifically, include technological
advances that allow transfer of dispatch responsibility from the Guard, to the Driver, under Driver
Controlled Operation (DCO). DCO means that our On-Train teams can spend more time within our
customers, in the main body of the train, ensuring their safety and security, and delivering a supreme level
of customer service that isn’t as achievable under traditional operation with Guard lead dispatch.
For the reasons listed above, DCO will become SWRs preferred method of operation for the Arterio fleet
(and any other future new, or converted fleets). In realising a joint ambition for improved working
practices, SWR and the RMT have been involved in discussions to introduce improvements to Guards
current terms and conditions including investment in new Depots, introduction of new technology, and
importantly, improvements in Guards work life balance.

Operation
A significant change will be that Guards in either grade may, or may not, perform a role in door operation and
dispatch in line with the SWR instructions applicable to the rolling stock being worked. DCO is the preferred
method of operation, guaranteeing the role of the Guard, and this will be applied where the rolling stock is
capable of such operation. Under DCO method of operation, no passenger train will run without a Guard
(Metro Guard/ Commercial Guard/ Contingency Guard) on board. Additionally, under DCO operation, Guards
will not lead in door operation at stations or perform their traditional role in dispatch. There will be some
tasks where the Guards role is to assist the Driver.

 

[NSEWonderer]

With ABDO if I understand correctly its basically use the stopping part of ATO based systems already in use but is more cost effective in that you don't have a bunch of Balises and all the signal and redundancy equipment etc required with a full ATO/ CBTC System.

On the Elizabeth Line the entry Balise is just before the entry to the platform and is(unless its changed since I last studied) a speed based control command to the ATO to maintain a certain speed, ahead of the next Balise. The Balise after that another slower speed control command to the ATO. Take for instance its 25mph command on the entry Balise and then the second is 15mph. Near the stop market board you'll have now the position command Balise of which tells the ATO system exactly where to stop, note as you are aware the Elizabeth Line Class 345s are all 9 car units so the problem of different car lengths and stop markers are null here.

ABDO just takes the entry and end parts of the ATO / CBTC system in reference to train platform stopping. Because the entry Balise system will be within the same signal block as the platform it won't require the ABDO system to differentiate between a red signal, yellow etc, thats down to the Driver. The ABDO will get all its station stop information when the driver first starts and setups the train, so that it will ignore stations that aren't planned stops unless the driver makes that modification in service for whatever reason, likewise with an unplanned skip stop.

The systems in place to allow the ABDO to work will be station specifically designed as with ATO so expected linespeed for example and entry speed usually done manually into that station will make for the speed threshold in which ABDO will engage from what I understand. An indication that you're going too fast for engagement of the system or that ofc the system has actually engaged will show on the HMI and when its engaged the HMI will show the relevant data towards the stop position target etc that the ABDO system is undertaking.

Note Also that ABDO has to be engaged by the driver when the HMI shows its available or in range(after the above conditions i state above are present) they push the ABDO engage button to engage it or the ABDO cancel like wise if they want to disable it, assuming its current engaged. The two buttons are in a similar place just under the HMI in the cab of the 701.

Please note that all of above takes mainly some research I've done into similar systems and broken them down to what imo would logically make up ABDO but it in no way shape or form may end up being show in the real production ABDO.

Just wrote this half awake so apologies if its an incoherent mess haha

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

For the same reason that SWR has been able to offload an entire suburban fleet without replacement (the 456s) presumably; fewer passengers and fewer services.

I would imagine that at this point SWR are keen to just get the things into service as soon as possible. If the wider climate means that previously anticipated modes of operation are no longer required, and not introducing them means a time saving in training and so on, then clearly it makes sense not to introduce them. I would hazard a guess that driver training is significantly quicker if you omit the need to train an entire company to operate doors when they have never done so before, as well as how to deal with the automatic door opening system, fault finding, manual override etc etc etc. The current benefits of leaving all that aside are fairly plain to see if it just isn’t needed.

So why didn't SWR plan it that way in first place and then add functionality at a future point rather than wasting years of software development leaving nearly a Billion pounds worth of rolling stock sitting idle and no doubt degrading as its been off the juice for so long. This has been one of the industries worst rolling stock introductions although not the only one and its about time the transport select committee teed up an enquiry.

 

[Goldfish62]

So why didn't SWR plan it that way in first place and then add functionality at a future point rather than wasting years of software development leaving nearly a Billion pounds worth of rolling stock sitting idle and no doubt degrading as its been off the juice for so long. This has been one of the industries worst rolling stock introductions although not the only one and its about time the transport select committee teed up an enquiry.

Because at the time the stock was ordered the world was different.

 

[TEW]

Because at the time the stock was ordered the world was different.

Whilst this is true SWR's franchise plans always looked ambitious to put it mildly. The network already struggled to run as many trains as timetabled, peak time services were consistently a few minutes late. But SWR planned to both increase and speed up services. Covid probably saved them somewhat, the trains were already full but trying to run more never really looked achievable.