Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Mikey C]

Think of the staff who are working all day in them. It is horrendous. The driver gets "comfort cooling" which might take the edge of the high 20s but doesn't do much above 30. The guard gets nothing at all...

Maybe the unions could be a bit more flexible in accepting the air conditioned 701, even with their faults...

 

[Bigfoot]

Maybe the unions could be a bit more flexible in accepting the air conditioned 701, even with their faults...

Yes. It's the unions delaying units that are still being built with faults as they leave the factory. Let's keep the train cool, don't worry about the doors opening as the train moves. That's not a problem.

 

[spark001uk]

. ..don't worry about the doors opening as the train moves...

That's the boost setting on the aircon.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes. It's the unions delaying units that are still being built with faults as they leave the factory. Let's keep the train cool, don't worry about the doors opening as the train moves. That's not a problem.

I was being a bit flippant, but of all the faults that still exist, how many are safety critical as opposed to irritations which need to be fixed, but shouldn't prevent entry into service. Concentrate on the former ones, after all the other Aventra happily seem to operate without doors opening randomly.

 

[Bigfoot]

I was being a bit flippant, but of all the faults that still exist, how many are safety critical as opposed to irritations which need to be fixed, but shouldn't prevent entry into service. Concentrate on the former ones, after all the other Aventra happily seem to operate without doors opening randomly.

As there still isn't a single unit that is in an acceptable working condition for either SWR or ASLEF to be delivered to SWR with all of the irritations or safety critical faults all fixed and working after literally years of testing and "fixes". If one worked and was perfect, then acceptance would begin. Alstom/Bombardier can't even get one to work and meet the requirements. It's an embarrassing situation for such a large company.

 

[SolomonSouth]

As there still isn't a single unit that is in an acceptable working condition for either SWR or ASLEF to be delivered to SWR with all of the irritations or safety critical faults all fixed and working after literally years of testing and "fixes". If one worked and was perfect, then acceptance would begin. Alstom/Bombardier can't even get one to work and meet the requirements. It's an embarrassing situation for such a large company.

There are way too many faults with them. Reliability needs to be sorted

 

[amazon1675]

Has anyone ...either builder or buyer...got a handle on the whole 701 project? By now one would imagine that the common faults have been identified,solutions found,and so new build units should be coming out largely fault-free subject to the usual snagging and fiddles most new kit requires. Serious question...are they fixable or not?

 

[Goldfish62]

Has anyone ...either builder or buyer...got a handle on the whole 701 project? By now one woud imagine that the common faults have been identified,solutions found,and so new build units should be coming out largely fault-free subject to the usual snagging and fiddles most new kit requires. Serious question...are they fixable or not?

I'm told there are still faults with the 345s awaiting resolution so it's really how significant outstanding faults are rather than expecting zero faults.

 

[Elorith]

Has anyone ...either builder or buyer...got a handle on the whole 701 project? By now one woud imagine that the common faults have been identified,solutions found,and so new build units should be coming out largely fault-free subject to the usual snagging and fiddles most new kit requires. Serious question...are they fixable or not?

It's still not too late to scrap them...

 

[Goldfish62]

It's still not too late to scrap them...

What's the Plan B then?

 

[Class360/1]

What's the Plan B then?

Internal speculation from last year said more 707’s

 

[samuelmorris]

Surely not. The point at which a 750 vehicle order gets canned after the units are assembled but never used in favour of German built units (regardless of where the components being assembled come from) is when the government would take notice. This SURELY isn't a sensible proposal. Is it really that difficult to get the shorter cabs to work?

 

[Elorith]

What's the Plan B then?

A fresh order of some other kind of 700 series unit I suppose. I don't see customers or staff taking issue with another batch of 707s as they are, arguably, among the best of all these new 700 series trains.

Surely not. The point at which a 750 vehicle order gets canned after the units are assembled but never used in favour of German built units (regardless of where the components being assembled come from) is when the government would take notice. This SURELY isn't a sensible proposal. Is it really that difficult to get the shorter cabs to work?

It's apparently not just about the driving cabs but a whole host of other issues which still remain to be solved.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Surely not. The point at which a 750 vehicle order gets canned after the units are assembled but never used in favour of German built units (regardless of where the components being assembled come from) is when the government would take notice. This SURELY isn't a sensible proposal. Is it really that difficult to get the shorter cabs to work?

707s could be built in Goole now - the government would happily lap it up as levelling up!

But seriously - Aventra quality control seems to be all over the place. It seems that Bombardier in their later years just let the order books pile high with speculative numbers - and now poor quality units remain in the sidings while 455s experience yet another heat wave (their original traction equipment would've seen both if it wasn't for retractioning!)

 

[fgwrich]

Has anyone ...either builder or buyer...got a handle on the whole 701 project? By now one woud imagine that the common faults have been identified,solutions found,and so new build units should be coming out largely fault-free subject to the usual snagging and fiddles most new kit requires. Serious question...are they fixable or not?

In short, No. not really. They probably are fixable, but each unit so far seems to be presenting lots of different issues and are providing Alstom with something of a headache. The last time I checked in with a contact, they’d advised roughly between 250 - 400 faults per unit. The fact some of the vehicle ends appear to be re-done, as well as new Air Con units replaced already, isn’t a good sign.

Of course there’s another problem looming in the horizon - they might be able to reduce the amount of key faults down upon each visit to Eastleigh / Worksop / Litchurch Lane etc but sending the back into storage yet again won’t help the units prior to any entry to service.

As nice, and as desirable as a new batch of 707s would be, I can’t see it happening. The lead times wouldn’t, for one thing, be practicable.

 

[Elorith]

In short, No. not really. They probably are fixable, but each unit so far seems to be presenting lots of different issues and are providing Alstom with something of a headache. The last time I checked in with a contact, they’d advised roughly between 250 - 400 faults per unit. The fact some of the vehicle ends appear to be re-done, as well as new Air Con units replaced already, isn’t a good sign.

Of course there’s another problem looming in the horizon - they might be able to reduce the amount of key faults down upon each visit to Eastleigh / Worksop / Litchurch Lane etc but sending the back into storage yet again won’t help the units prior to any entry to service.

As nice, and as desirable as a new batch of 707s would be, I can’t see it happening. The lead times wouldn’t, for one thing, be practicable.

250-400 faults a unit?

 

[Snow1964]

Surely not. The point at which a 750 vehicle order gets canned after the units are assembled but never used in favour of German built units (regardless of where the components being assembled come from) is when the government would take notice. This SURELY isn't a sensible proposal. Is it really that difficult to get the shorter cabs to work?

Weren’t many of the desiro fleet built in Vienna, Austria rather than Germany.

The 701s have a fair bit of foreign equipment, but how it was installed in England is a lot of the problem.

It still baffles me how they passed Quality Control, and were taken out of the factory gate and to a storage site (I mean unfixed faults and assembly flaws, not drivers requested changes) The only manufacturing company I ever worked for would have never have allowed unfixed goods to leave the production site.

 

[Goldfish62]

250-400 faults a unit?

That's not what even ASLEF are claiming!

The communication from ASLEF to members a few weeks ago said 90 faults, most of which were minor but there were around 20? faults that required resolution before acceptance.

 

[fgwrich]

250-400 faults a unit?

Spread across a 10 car unit, yes. Works out at roughly 40 faults per car, but some can be higher or lower than others.

The 701s have a fair bit of foreign equipment, but how it was installed in England is a lot of the problem.

It still baffles me how they passed Quality Control, and were taken out of the factory gate and to a storage site (I mean unfixed faults and assembly flaws, not drivers requested changes) The only manufacturing company I ever worked for would have never have allowed unfixed goods to leave the production site.

They really seem to have been thrown together, possibly as quickly as possible to get them out of Litchurch Lane. I too find it almost amazing that they are being shipped out of the works, to free up space for more, to bring them back for completion at a later date.

That's not what even ASLEF are claiming!

The communication from ASLEF to members a few weeks ago said 90 faults, most of which were minor but there were around 20? faults that required resolution before acceptance.

I’m only going on what they said (and they’ve been well versed in the commissioning and testing of units for years). The 90 faults may well be after Alstom’s recent tightening up of Quality Control at LL. But believable from what I’ve seen both at work and out on test (including the cab door coming off it’s runners at Basingstoke Station).

 

[XAM2175]

Weren’t many of the desiro fleet built in Vienna, Austria rather than Germany.

Yes, the 444s were built at SGP Vienna, but I suspect that @samuelmorris used "German built" as a reference to Siemens in general rather than any specific production location.

 

[Elorith]

Spread across a 10 car unit, yes. Works out at roughly 40 faults per car, but some can be higher or lower than others.



They really seem to have been thrown together, possibly as quickly as possible to get them out of Litchurch Lane. I too find it almost amazing that they are being shipped out of the works, to free up space for more, to bring them back for completion at a later date.


I’m only going on what they said (and they’ve been well versed in the commissioning and testing of units for years). The 90 faults may well be after Alstom’s recent tightening up of Quality Control at LL. But believable from what I’ve seen both at work and out on test (including the cab door coming off it’s runners at Basingstoke Station).

Comical if true. It really wouldn't surprise me either at this point.

 

[samuelmorris]

If it's not all about the cab ends, how have so many 720s been accepted for service? I'm not doubting the reports of the issues, just baffled at why the 701s are so much worse. The introduction of the previous Aventra fleets was far from problem-free but it was long ago now that I can't understand how things have got this bad.

 

[fgwrich]

If it's not all about the cab ends, how have so many 720s been accepted for service? I'm not doubting the reports of the issues, just baffled at why the 701s are so much worse. The introduction of the previous Aventra fleets was far from problem-free but it was long ago now that I can't understand how things have got this bad.

Different production lines, different build schedules, number of staff available (covid etc)? Then again, the GA ones aren’t without faults, but at least they just about work. The general consensus from my Eastern colleagues is that the Stadlers are a much better unit all round.

 

[Nicks]

What I find hard to understand is why the most recently built units can't go into service - maybe the ones built in the COVID years are poor but the newer units have been built with knowledge about the earlier failings.

 

[nlogax]

Is there some sort of updated status and path to readiness for these units? What's the anticipated timeline for their being accepted into revenue earning service, and what are the major obstacles that need to be overcome?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Will these end up going the same way as the Class 442? How much money was wasted spent on these units? When does SWR decide enough is enough...?

And before anyone asks, I know the 442s were much older trains but had brand new traction packages among other technical stuff

 

[Towers]

Will these end up going the same way as the Class 442? How much money was wasted spent on these units? When does SWR decide enough is enough...?

And before anyone asks, I know the 442s were much older trains but had brand new traction packages among other technical stuff

They wouldn't be scrapped. The absolute extreme worst case scenario might see them rejected, at which point they'd likely be returned to the factory and completely stripped back to the bare bones and rebuilt properly, then perhaps leased to somebody else as a very quick future order at a favourable price. Very unlikley though!

 

[Invincible]

Is there some sort of updated status and path to readiness for these units? What's the anticipated timeline for their being accepted into revenue earning service, and what are the major obstacles that need to be overcome?

Unlikely to meet the August deadline for service on the Windsor line so the 707s can go to SE?

SWR retains 12 Class 707 trains in boost to fleet availability

www.southwesternrailway.com

 

[swr444]

Unlikely to meet the August deadline for service on the Windsor line so the 707s can go to SE?

SWR retains 12 Class 707 trains in boost to fleet availability

www.southwesternrailway.com

they are staying for longer now, i'm hearing until december/january

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If this debacle cannot be resolved, is there a chance for the 701s to be stripped back and rebuilt to become something like a metro third rail version of the slightly more reliable 720s, with larger cab ends, using the 720 template to build on?

Obviously with some different specs such as length of coaches & door positions etc.