Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

Given the huge cost of a new train the price difference between fitting substandard cameras and those up to the job must be incredibly marginal to the overall cost.

 

[norbitonflyer]

the strategy for rolling stock procurement is to deliver a product at the lowest possible cost

Well that backfired, as
1. they haven't delivered the product and
2. keeping the old fleet going whilst paying for the new one is costing a lot.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It is actually really ironic your post.
Siemens delivered 8 and 12 car 700s operating over the same routes, so why the obsessions with 2x5 = 10 cars of 701 ?

Bonkers waste of time effort and money if you ask me

 

[Monty]

It is actually really ironic your post.
Siemens delivered 8 and 12 car 700s operating over the same routes, so why the obsessions with 2x5 = 10 cars of 701 ?

Bonkers waste of time effort and money if you ask me

Most of the SWR inner suburban is set up for 10 rather than 12 coaches.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is actually really ironic your post.
Siemens delivered 8 and 12 car 700s operating over the same routes, so why the obsessions with 2x5 = 10 cars of 701 ?

Bonkers waste of time effort and money if you ask me

I vaguely recall that some/all of the depots for the 701s cannot accommodate long units. Some of the fleet is to be 10-car and I cannot help feeling making them all 5car would have got rid of the clever ideas about the cab size in a 2x5car formation to match a door positioning in a 1x10car formation. Still bonkers though.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Most of the SWR inner suburban is set up for 10 rather than 12 coaches.

Yes, which is SWR have gone for 5cars or 10cars - with 2x5 matching the 10 cars length.

But i was making the point that GTR ordered 8car and 12car 700s where matching lengths was clearly not an issue. Why is it for SWR ?

 

[swr444]

And actually you see how much more efficient they are than guard operated - stops at stations for just a few seconds sometimes and then moves on - has allowed them to tighten up the timetable no end

I find the opposite in southern and SE. Their trains are nearly always late and the drivers can be very slow with the doors

 

[Bumpkin]

Surely if the cameras used by the drivers during DCO operation were the problem, we would have had something from ASLEF about rejection, not from the RMT?

I thought the RMT were rejecting them because SWR changed their mind on running them DCO and wanted to go back to traditional guard open, guard close.
Seen here in September: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/role-of-the-guard-and-extension-of-doo-swr010923/

The notice yesterday is just the continuation of the above having no resolution so the stock is rejected until an agreement can again be reached

 

[JonathanH]

But i was making the point that GTR ordered 8car and 12car 700s where matching lengths was clearly not an issue. Why is it for SWR ?

There was a demand for some 5-car units as 10-car all week wasn't necessary for some routes, and some turnbacks used for engineering work are likely not able to cope with 10-car operation - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-western-railway.148717/page-172#post-6144483. Also siding capacity - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-western-railway.148717/page-172#post-6143697

Thameslink can cope with a minimum of 8 car operation, but even there stabling of 12-car units isn't always straightforward, and many stations and sidings are only 8-car length.

 

[43066]

And actually you see how much more efficient they are than guard operated - stops at stations for just a few seconds sometimes and then moves on - has allowed them to tighten up the timetable no end

I’d observe that the above is factually incorrect; the previous Thameslink stock was also DOO, so any improvement post 700 introduction was nothing to do with changing the method of operation!

Why are some posters so determined to turn this thread into a DOO debate? DOO in the true rulebook sense has never been on the cards for SWR.

I find the opposite in southern and SE. Their trains are nearly always late and the drivers can be very slow with the doors

I’ve beaten 700s into and away from stations driving guard open guard close trains, and a guard at my TOC can get the doors open quicker than I could as a DOO driver. The push for DOO was always more about money saving and/or reducing union influence than it was about efficiency.

It’s well established that passengers generally prefer a second member of staff on the train. If we’re going to have that, my view is that it’s better to follow the SWR model of a trained safety critical member of staff than the Southern OBS model, who are paid as much or more than the staff they replaced, but have no operational input and generally seem disinterested.

 

[JonathanH]

I’d observe that the above is factually incorrect; the previous Thameslink stock was also DOO, so any improvement post 700 introduction was nothing to do with changing the method of operation!

...other than the routes they took over from Southern, and following the more recent introduction of self dispatch.

 

[43066]

...other than the routes they took over from Southern, and following the more recent introduction of self dispatch.

The core TL network was DOO from way back. In 2018 they took more routes over from Southeastern than Southern AIUI, and the majority of those locations were already DOO self dispatch both for Southeastern and Southern (the Sutton loop was already DOO under Southern, as was Catford loop under Southeastern, and TL took over services from both), but we’re veering off topic, so best to park that thread of discussion I think…

 

[3141]

Yes, which is SWR have gone for 5cars or 10cars - with 2x5 matching the 10 cars length.

But i was making the point that GTR ordered 8car and 12car 700s where matching lengths was clearly not an issue. Why is it for SWR ?

My recollection is that it was the DfT that placed the order for the new Thameslink stock, and that the 8-car units were necessary for the Sutton loop.

 

[Goldfish62]

My recollection is that it was the DfT that placed the order for the new Thameslink stock, and that the 8-car units were necessary for the Sutton loop.

Yes, it was nothing to do with GTR.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yes, which is SWR have gone for 5cars or 10cars - with 2x5 matching the 10 cars length.

But i was making the point that GTR ordered 8car and 12car 700s where matching lengths was clearly not an issue. Why is it for SWR ?

It's not the overall length that is the issue, it is the door spacings, which would be different for 2x5car than they would for a 10car if the earlier cab design (classes 345, 710, 720) was used because the end (driving) cars are longer than the intermediate ones. The new clsss 701 cab design has been shortened so that the middle two cars are the same length whether the train is 2x5 car or 1x 10 car.
The class 700s, whether 8 car or 12 car, only have driving cabs at the extreme ends, and all the intermediate cars are the same length. the lnegth of the cabs is irrelevant as they never run in multiple (2x8car is too long for any platforms on the network) . So the door spacings along the train are the same whether it's an 8 or a 12 car - and the stopping points are marked so that the doors of an 8 car stop in the same places as the corresponding doors in a 12-car.
It is also not an issue for classes 345, 710 and 720 because they all come in only one length and so the door spacings are always the same (even when you have two 720s in multiple).

 

[weeklycommuter]

Rail boss on track to become London's first female transport commissioner

Former Heathrow Express driver on track to become London's first female transport commissioner

www.standard.co.uk

At South Western, Ms Mann has had to contend with a series of train strikes over pay while trying to rebuild passenger numbers, especially commuter journeys that plummeted during and in the wake of the pandemic.
She has also faced a battle to introduce new Arterio trains on the network in and out of Waterloo, the UK’s busiest railway station.
A pledge to have the first trains in service by the end of the year is now at risk due to a row with the RMT general secretary Mick Lynch.

Ms Mann said she was “delighted” to be returning to TfL.

 

[Dan G]

It's not the overall length that is the issue, it is the door spacings, which would be different for 2x5car than they would for a 10car if the earlier cab design (classes 345, 710, 720) was used because the end (driving) cars are longer than the intermediate ones. The new clsss 701 cab design has been shortened so that the middle two cars are the same length whether the train is 2x5 car or 1x 10 car.

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

 

[DMckduck97]

Rail boss on track to become London's first female transport commissioner

Former Heathrow Express driver on track to become London's first female transport commissioner

www.standard.co.uk

She's pulled a blinder there to be honest, Hopwood done most of the heavy lifting and she's benefited from that. The 701 failed introduction should be her legacy.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

It can be important where the doors line up on the platform, for instance so that wheelchair ramps can be set up. (See the recent contretemps at Kings Cross on another thread where an Azuma arrived back to front and the only door to a wheelchair space ended up next to where the platform is narrowed by the escalator.)

SThe 701 failed introduction should be her legacy.

Will the new trains on the Picadilly Line now have to be renamed the 2029 stock?

 

[hwl]

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

With ABDO the stopping points should be near enough identical that you could paint markings on the platforms to speed up alighting and boarding slightly(regulars already know near enough)

 

[Goldfish62]

She's pulled a blinder there to be honest, Hopwood done most of the heavy lifting and she's benefited from that. The 701 failed introduction should be her legacy.

Unfortunately from my experience that's exactly how she works.

SWR could do worse than getting Hopwood back on a more permanent basis.

 

[amazon1675]

Unfortunately from my experience that's exactly how she works.

SWR could do worse than getting Hopwood back on a more permanent basis.

Bit like the merry-go-round of football managers. This opens the door,pardon the pun,for OOLR ?

 

[DennisM]

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

They mattered to MTR, who seemed to naively think they could fix the awful pre covid performance with a handful of sticking plaster ideas that worked on the Hong Kong metro. I think they might’ve even adopted the Hong Kong industrial relations strategy too

 

[Robin Procter]

She's pulled a blinder there to be honest, Hopwood done most of the heavy lifting and she's benefited from that. The 701 failed introduction should be her legacy.

.... The 701 introduction has not met (so far!) the stated December date but it clearly will be introduced during 2024 when it is ready. The introduction is showing no signs of being cancelled. The reasons why the 701 is not ready yet has been discussed in great detail in this thread along with many logical and sensible suggestions and opinions from those with the benefit of not being directly involved with the introduction process.

It's easy to point the finger at one person in spite of the complexities of the 701 introduction process but I guess that unfortunately the blame culture is alive and kicking.

Personally I am looking forward to seeing and photographing the 701 class in regular service and perhaps in different liveries.

 

[Goldfish62]

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

This has been discussed in some detail on this thread, but I appreciate that's it's not reasonable to go back through 6.5k comments to find out.

It's accepted international practice on metro systems in order to reduce dwell times where every second counts, especially when combined with some form of automation ensuring that the doors will always be in exactly the same position on a platform on every train.

When the franchise specification was drawn up in 2017 SWR metro services were expected to increase, eating into every last bit of line capacity and thus reducing dwell times was essential. However, post-Covid that was no longer an issue.

So, consistent door spacing did matter at the time the trains were ordered, even if it doesn't now. Unfortunately that led to Bombardier botching the cab design. The rest is history!

Bit like the merry-go-round of football managers. This opens the door,pardon the pun,for OOLR ?

I doubt very much the MD getting another job warrants that. However, maybe the inability of the operator to get an unremarkable, but desperately needed, new train into service might be.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why do door spacings matter to anyone?

Apart from it smoothing boarding by people being near the doorways there is the characteristic in Southern Land that passengers (especially commuters) queue on the platform in exactly the right place for the doors. I am not sure how rigid this is nowadays but back in the last century it was. And woe betide you if you jump the queue due to ignorance !.

Generally - Greater Anglia were to have the same problem with their 720s but overcame this by changing the order (quite late on) to be all 5car rather than a mix of 5car and 10car units. Simple solution imho.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Generally - Greater Anglia were to have the same problem with their 720s but overcame this by changing the order (quite late on) to be all 5car rather than a mix of 5car and 10car units. Simple solution imho.

Don't think it wouldf work on SWR though - I believe there are some lines that can't take more than eight cars - Ascot to Ash Vale possibly - certainly platform 1 at Kingston.

 

[SWT_USER]

She's pulled a blinder there to be honest, Hopwood done most of the heavy lifting and she's benefited from that. The 701 failed introduction should be her legacy.

She's overseen the managed decline of SWR. TFL need someone with that skillset given funding doesn't appear to be forthcoming for new stock, so I can see why she was appointed.

 

[Cowley]

Claire Mann has come up in discussions many times on the forum, but apart from what’s been said above that’ll probably do on the matter for this thread.

Thanks.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't think it wouldf work on SWR though - I believe there are some lines that can't take more than eight cars - Ascot to Ash Vale possibly - certainly platform 1 at Kingston.

Also the minor issue that most if not all 10 car units are already built.