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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

WWTownEnth

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21 Mar 2014
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201
Tomorrow will be the start of the ELEVENTH WEEK of this charade of two synthetic revenue service diagrams every weekday.

As far as I can see we are still no closer to learning when the “real” suburban services will start to receive these units. Meanwhile class 455s continue to fall apart and class 450s continue to cover for them as commuters across the network suffer short formations and underserved stations with all the resulting overcrowding.

An absolute disgrace.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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Richmond
Tomorrow will be the start of the ELEVENTH WEEK of this charade of two synthetic revenue service diagrams every weekday.

As far as I can see we are still no closer to learning when the “real” suburban services will start to receive these units. Meanwhile class 455s continue to fall apart and class 450s continue to cover for them as commuters across the network suffer short formations and underserved stations with all the resulting overcrowding.

An absolute disgrace.
Give it another few months... by then we'll have a whopping one extra service a day
 

coppercapped

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Yes thats correct the up front capital costs are on Rock Rail but the leasing charges are on the taxpayer and it wont take many years for the taxpayer to have paid out that 895m. The state could have provided the finance much cheaper but then nobody else makes any margin.
A couple of points to this position:

1. The leasing payments are not covered entirely by government subsidies. Pre-Covid some three quarters of the passenger TOC’s total costs were covered by fare income. In the meantime this proportion has fallen to about half which means that essentially government subsidies now cover about half the leasing costs.

The Class 701 trains will have an operating life of thirty years or more. Any predictions of future income are therefore fraught with uncertainty but it is a reasonable assumption that the proportion of the total TOC costs made up by fares income will increase as passengers return and under the changed circumstances the railways get better at improving the yield. In turn this implies that the government’s share of the leasing costs will continue to fall.

At no point will the government pay, as you suggest, all the leasing costs.

2. Under the financial constraints on the governments of the recent past - regardless of their political inclination - it is extremely unlikely that the Treasury would fork out £865 million to buy trains when there are other expenditures to be considered which are much more important to voters generally than a section of the railways.

In addition as you say, a government may well be able to borrow money at a lower rate of interest than a commercial company but it certainly does not have to pass on this lower rate of interest to the organisations to which it, in turn, lends the money. One of the perennial gripes of BR was that the rate of return charged by the Treasury for loans was higher than it could have obtained on the commercial market. But being a nationalised industry it could only borrow through the Treasury.
 

DMckduck97

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26 Jul 2020
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England
Just something I was thinking of, a shower thought if you will, since the 701s are going to bring complete consistency to the suburban network in terms of fleet, and loads of stations will only serve the Arterios, would it at all be feasible to adjust platform heights to make them level with the trains? I assume it would cost a lot of money and would likely never be looked into because of that, but just in this theoretical situation, how much, and is it even possible?
That would be incredibly expensive, and considering SWR chose a cheaper train that what was or could have been available theres no chance!
 

Peter Mugridge

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8 Apr 2010
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Epsom
That would be incredibly expensive, and considering SWR chose a cheaper train that what was or could have been available theres no chance!
There will also be substitutions by 450s on occasion so unless they're at the same height as the 701s...


Fresh pair stabled at Clapham Yard today... 701 528 + 701 529 in the road nearest to the down Windsor.
 
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Goldfish62

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FuzzyDuck

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Snow1964

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How long before it returns north for storage?
Those early built trains seem to need lot of updating to storage spec, (or whatever the updated spec, but back to storage is called)

The real fun will come when Rock Rail South Western file their next annual accounts at Companies House, in 2-3 months, because we will get to see how much SWR have paid in Leasing fee in 2023 whilst not using any in service, (whilst also leasing 455s and 707s etc).
 

brooklynbound

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.
Just been on today's train, it's 043 again. The guard decided to make an announcement. I was suprised how badly the speaker cut out, missing some of his words. No idea if that's operator error or the speaker. The recorded messages were playing fine.
 

800001

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24 Oct 2015
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Just been on today's train, it's 043 again. The guard decided to make an announcement. I was suprised how badly the speaker cut out, missing some of his words. No idea if that's operator error or the speaker. The recorded messages were playing fine.
I’ve rode these 4 times, each time the Guard made manual announcements I could not understand a single word, crackly, squeaky and just totally useless.
 

fgwrich

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I’ve rode these 4 times, each time the Guard made manual announcements I could not understand a single word, crackly, squeaky and just totally useless.
I’ve noticed this issue too on the 2 occasions that I have used them, along with the constant knocking and rumbling from the Flexx Eco bogies underneath (having Lino flooring instead of noise absorbing carpet doesn’t help). It’s easy to see why Alstom has junked the Aventra platform.
 

Samzino

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I’ve noticed this issue too on the 2 occasions that I have used them, along with the constant knocking and rumbling from the Flexx Eco bogies underneath (having Lino flooring instead of noise absorbing carpet doesn’t help). It’s easy to see why Alstom has junked the Aventra platform.
Tbh the poor PA can also be found on quite a bit of 345s. Starting to think that Alstom with these earlier models cheaped out. The 720s and 710s PA wise seem fine.
 

Goldfish62

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I’ve rode these 4 times, each time the Guard made manual announcements I could not understand a single word, crackly, squeaky and just totally useless.
So like a 458 then. :)

I’ve noticed this issue too on the 2 occasions that I have used them, along with the constant knocking and rumbling from the Flexx Eco bogies underneath (having Lino flooring instead of noise absorbing carpet doesn’t help). It’s easy to see why Alstom has junked the Aventra platform.
The FLEXX-Eco bogie is not confined to the Aventra. Over 10,000 have been sold worldwide to date so it clearly has something going for it.
 
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fgwrich

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So like a 458 then. :)


The FLEXX-Eco bogie is not confined to the Aventra. Over 10,000 have been sold worldwide to date so it clearly has something going for it.
And god help them, it’s always been a poor riding bogie since the days of the Voyager. But, when you combine all the issues with the Aventra and the fact that the 3rd largest fleet order from 2017 still isn’t entering traffic anytime soon, Clearly Alstom isn’t happy with its inherited legacy platform.

As I’ve said before, where Hitachi, CAF and Bombardier managed to get a smooth riding track friendly bogie wrong, Siemens managed somehow to nail it on the Desiro City.
 

Samzino

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To be honest, Alstom Internationally also has the Avelia Liberty which is heavily plagued with issues and running quite late from its 2022 start date. I wonder if its so much cost cutting in the form of outsourcing like the case of the 345s software debacle.
 

Goldfish62

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And god help them, it’s always been a poor riding bogie since the days of the Voyager. But, when you combine all the issues with the Aventra and the fact that the 3rd largest fleet order from 2017 still isn’t entering traffic anytime soon, Clearly Alstom isn’t happy with its inherited legacy platform.

As I’ve said before, where Hitachi, CAF and Bombardier managed to get a smooth riding track friendly bogie wrong, Siemens managed somehow to nail it on the Desiro City.
I think the Voyager ride quality is OK. About the only that's OK with them.

But on your second paragraph I completely agree.
 

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