Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Scottychoo]

Plenty of reasons but no doubt they will be collecting their P45s if they divulge them here. But still no 'Stansted Express' unit having been anywhere near Stansted pretty much says it all I would say

 

[jopsuk]

saw pictures of a 745 at Liverpool Street today

 

[Scottychoo]

But it didn't run via the WAML.

 

[James James]

I've shown some of these comments to one of the test team & says it has made his weekend

But can that person on the test team tell us what the actual problem are? (Or is that all under wraps for legal reasons tied to trying to get compensation out of Stadler?)

 

[dk1]

But can that person on the test team tell us what the actual problem are? (Or is that all under wraps for legal reasons tied to trying to get compensation out of Stadler?)

Of course not. Dont be silly. All in good time

 

[ashkeba]

The 745s will not see use on the WAML due to numerous issues, not least they won't fit through Hackney Downs platform.

745s are no wider than the old 37s that I've seen pictures of doing the route, are they? Has someone moved the Hackney platforms?

 

[43096]

Plenty of reasons but no doubt they will be collecting their P45s if they divulge them here. But still no 'Stansted Express' unit having been anywhere near Stansted pretty much says it all I would say

Perhaps you could reference an authoritative source. Just keeping parroting the same thing doesn’t make it any more believable.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps you could reference an authoritative source. Just keeping parroting the same thing doesn’t make it any more believable.

Here here & can you just imagine giving a P45 to a driver?

 

[hwl]

745s are no wider than the old 37s that I've seen pictures of doing the route, are they? Has someone moved the Hackney platforms?

But the wheelbase (bogie pivot points) is 50cm longer than a 37, the 745s have pairs of articulated coaches with a jacob bogie in the middle of the pair so there is a lot more centre throw than conventional bogies and the 37 body also curves inwards far more at platform level than the 745...

Hackney Down also has rather chunky steel bridge beams that might cause lower structure gauge issues too.

 

[Scottychoo]

Here here & can you just imagine giving a P45 to a driver?

Yes, when said driver divulges company info on a public forum, incredibly popular way to get sacked these days I hear. As a retiree I couldn't give two hoots!

 

[dk1]

Yes, when said driver divulges company info on a public forum, incredibly popular way to get sacked these days I hear. As a retiree I couldn't give two hoots!

No worries then. Thank you for that.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’m not into believing these rumours entirely but they aren’t ridiculous.
Logistically it makes no sense to have 745s on WA to stansted. Their depot is on the opposite side of the network. This was a bid team plan don’t forget.

But at least have a proper source, or mods will probably start deleting unfounded rumours as deceptive.

 

[James James]

It is a bit of a mystery...

Stadler have experience with bi-modes, so let's assume bi-modes aren't the issue.

Multiple media reports have stated that delays are due to components from a subcontractor, so there's at least that hint. (But if there are multiple issues, then maybe it's not just that.)

The cameras have been an issue, and are likely to be a component from a subcontractor, and I suppose that could cause issues with acceptance since they're critical to DOO?
Stadler haven't built anything with UK requirements before - so perhaps issues with train protection software (AWS and the like) - but I imagine they'd build that in-house so perhaps not?

But those media reports of a single subsystem being the issue would conflict with the claims here that there are multiple issues blocking use of the trains...

 

[hwl]

It is a bit of a mystery...

Stadler have experience with bi-modes, so let's assume bi-modes aren't the issue.

Multiple media reports have stated that delays are due to components from a subcontractor, so there's at least that hint. (But if there are multiple issues, then maybe it's not just that.)

The cameras have been an issue, and are likely to be a component from a subcontractor, and I suppose that could cause issues with acceptance since they're critical to DOO?
Stadler haven't built anything with UK requirements before - so perhaps issues with train protection software (AWS and the like) - but I imagine they'd build that in-house so perhaps not?

But those media reports of a single subsystem being the issue would conflict with the claims here that there are multiple issues blocking use of the trains...

Cameras etc. from the same firm that Bombardier Hitachi and Siemens use which suggests the problems is more with Stadler being new to UK DOO...

Stadler didn't realise the time taken for the current AWS/TPWS modules to boot up which is a potential turn around time issue.

ASDO also appears to be an issue (not short platform calls)

DOO cameras and ASDO are more sensitive at moment due to swapping from guard to driver on most of the Stadler routes.

 

[hwl]

I’m not into believing these rumours entirely but they aren’t ridiculous.
Logistically it makes no sense to have 745s on WA to stansted. Their depot is on the opposite side of the network. This was a bid team plan don’t forget.

But at least have a proper source, or mods will probably start deleting unfounded rumours as deceptive.

Many commenters can't reveal their sources and this isn't wikipedia and RF is usually far more accurate than wikipedia...

 

[yorkie]

If anyone believes any member is spreading incorrect information please do use the report button.

I do not know what the reality is but I do know that people like @Bald Rick and @43096 work in the industry and are very clued up and so if they say something is incorrect, it would take a lot to convince me otherwise.

 

[James James]

Stadler didn't realise the time taken for the current AWS/TPWS modules to boot up which is a potential turn around time issue.

ASDO also appears to be an issue (not short platform calls).

One source has stated it's a British supplier for the problematic system, and at first glance, AWS/TPWS and ASDO both seem like things that would come from a British supplier (the former definitely, but even the latter doesn't seem particularly common outside the UK), but when actually looking into the relevant suppliers:

AWS/TPWS apparently comes from Mors Smitt which is a Dutch company (owned by Wabtec, who are american) - so maybe that's not it:
https://www.morssmitt.com/uploads/files/catalog/products/ts-tpws-aws-v1-0-cpdf(1).pdf

But ASDO and CCTV supplier is apparently Petards - a UK company:
https://www.railway-technology.com/...ain-cctv-and-asdo-systems-to-stadler-5775799/

I'll place my bets on the ASDO being the potential contractual issue blocking acceptance - maybe cameras too, with AWS/TPWS being a secondary annoyance.

[I see Stadler trains being turned around in the space of minutes on the continent, so at least they know how to do it when not dealing with AWS/TPWS.]

 

[trebor79]

My 755 turned round in a few minutes at Cambridge on Thursday. Incoming train was 15 late but we departed on time.

We know there is a software problem with ASDO at the moment and that's why stations such as Spooner Row have no service for the time being.

 

[hwl]

One source has stated it's a British supplier for the problematic system, and at first glance, AWS/TPWS and ASDO both seem like things that would come from a British supplier (the former definitely, but even the latter doesn't seem particularly common outside the UK), but when actually looking into the relevant suppliers:

AWS/TPWS apparently comes from Mors Smitt which is a Dutch company (owned by Wabtec, who are american) - so maybe that's not it:
https://www.morssmitt.com/uploads/files/catalog/products/ts-tpws-aws-v1-0-cpdf(1).pdf

But ASDO and CCTV supplier is apparently Petards - a UK company:
https://www.railway-technology.com/...ain-cctv-and-asdo-systems-to-stadler-5775799/

I'll place my bets on the ASDO being the potential contractual issue blocking acceptance - maybe cameras too, with AWS/TPWS being a secondary annoyance.

[I see Stadler trains being turned around in the space of minutes on the continent, so at least they know how to do it when not dealing with AWS/TPWS.]

Petards...

The AWS/TPWS one is more of a being new to the UK issue (not clue about TPWS especially v4) and promising the undeliverable given their TMS...

In reality i suspect Stadler didn't know how to interface their TMS (made by another 3rd party Selectron) with what Petards were going to deliver. the other manufacturer who use Petards being in control of their own TMS.

 

[dk1]

Cameras are not being used at present due to ongoing unreliability thus the conventional dispatch controlled by the guard. It's causing quite a bit of annoyance from passengers at the likes of Brundall Gardens who have had their service basically reduced by half. Peak times the 16:38, 17:36 & 18:04 no longer call leaving only the 17:06 & 18:40 from Norwich for commuters.

I have also posted this on the 755 thread as ASDO doesn't really apply to class 745s in this one even though the conversation got round to it via the camera problems.

 

[James James]

In reality i suspect Stadler didn't know how to interface their TMS (made by another 3rd party Selectron) with what Petards were going to deliver. the other manufacturer who use Petards being in control of their own TMS.

Something doesn't add up: stadler have presumably had to integrate tons of other country-specific systems from various manufacturers in the past, after all they're now running in a ton of European countries (in addition to ETCS), and it's not like they don't have their own software and electronics engineers who could help diagnose and fix issues (even if getting software from a third party will slightly slow down turnaround - although I would be surprised if they didn't have source access to software running on their trains). And from what I can tell at least some of their units have cameras installed (NSB and ZS seem to based on Youtube research), so the higher data-volume that cameras produce shouldn't be anything new.

Unreliability could just as well mean the cameras/ASDO modules aren't following whatever specification the manufacturer claimed to adhere to. Since it sounds like there happen to be issues with both cameras AND ASDO, that certainly seems like a possibility? (Which ultimately might still mean having to modify the train's software, but the fault could lie elsewhere.)

From a customer perspective, it's all the same thing - but from the manufacturer perspective that's a significant difference.

 

[hwl]

Something doesn't add up: stadler have presumably had to integrate tons of other country-specific systems from various manufacturers in the past, after all they're now running in a ton of European countries (in addition to ETCS), and it's not like they don't have their own software and electronics engineers who could help diagnose and fix issues (even if getting software from a third party will slightly slow down turnaround - although I would be surprised if they didn't have source access to software running on their trains). And from what I can tell at least some of their units have cameras installed (NSB and ZS seem to based on Youtube research), so the higher data-volume that cameras produce shouldn't be anything new.

Unreliability could just as well mean the cameras/ASDO modules aren't following whatever specification the manufacturer claimed to adhere to. Since it sounds like there happen to be issues with both cameras AND ASDO, that certainly seems like a possibility? (Which ultimately might still mean having to modify the train's software, but the fault could lie elsewhere.)

From a customer perspective, it's all the same thing - but from the manufacturer perspective that's a significant difference.

As I previously pointed out Stadler have effectively outsourced most of their software issues by buying in the TCMS (hardware and software) from Selectron (unlike Alstom / Bombarider / CAF / Hitachi and Siemens who do it in house) hence they have surprisingly few software and electronics engineers. They are a comparatively small company that has expanded massively in recent years including adding new production facilitates in Hungary + Poland and have won a raft of new orders so possibly they can no longer cope with all the issues arising.
The camera data rate is unlikely to be an issue (Bombardier systems could cope 18 years ago) much more likely integrating and interlocking cameras with other train systems e.g. turning the cameras and monitors off when the train gets to walking pace in a simple case, making sure the cameras on the platform side feed the monitors (i.e. linked to ASDO /CSDE), ... I suspect they thought they were buying a system that would be easy to integrate but in reality it needed lots of work.
Stadler try to stick to a small network of regular suppliers to minimise R&D requirements and staff costs.

One notable other largish rolling stock builder that bought in the TCMS (from Bombardier) was Ansaldo-Breda and that didn't end well. CAF used to buy theirs in from ABB (and Siemens supplied the joint build TCMSs) till about 12 years ago till they started using one they developed themselves.

 

[LAX54]

Maybe Stadler caught out by the stringent UK safety rulings ?

 

[trebor79]

Why are people assuming there's some massive fundamental problem? There are several units in service. If the issues were that fundamental or serious then they wouldn't be carrying hundreds of passengers around day in day out.
So far as we know, there's an issue with the DOO cameras and ASDO software. The delayed roll out could equally be due to logistical difficulties on a crowded railway to do the mileage accumulation, and having enough trained crew, and trained maintenance personnel with enough of the Crown Point maintenance facility available to use. No point putting more units into service if they can't maintain them. And we know maintenance is stretched anyway from the state of play on the GEML.

 

[Grumbler]

Why are people assuming there's some massive fundamental problem? There are several units in service.

I didn't think there were any 745s in service!

 

[dk1]

I didn't think there were any 745s in service!

For some reason lots of posts regarding 755s on this thread.

 

[trebor79]

Even so, they are very similar to the 755s. I wonder if it's linked to 755s not yet being permitted to use the overhead supply in passenger service?

 

[TheEdge]

Even so, they are very similar to the 755s. I wonder if it's linked to 755s not yet being permitted to use the overhead supply in passenger service?

755s are able to use pans in service but currently only between Norwich and Liverpool Street.

 

[Meerkat]

So the units are very different then! For different services

 

[hexagon789]

So very different then! For different services

In my opinion, not because of any technical differences, but because of the different routes they will operate warrants seperate threads for discussing their operations.