Class 801 Numbering - What was the logic?

[LudwigTails]

so i went to look up class 801s on youtube, so as you know where are 2 variants, class 801/1 and class 801/2. I thought the class 801/1 is supposed to be 5 cars only while class 801/2 are 9 cars. But for some reason according to videos, how come there are some class 801/1 are 9 cars and class 801/2 are 5 cars? did some trains got extended or reduceded the carriages and transfered on to other sets? Is it not set anymore that one variant is 5 and one is 9.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Unless Wikipedia has got it badly wrong, all 801/1 are 5 cars and all 801/2 are 9 cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_801

Just checked with TOPS, Wikipedia is right. So no idea why YouTube contributors would suggest otherwise.

 

[Halish Railway]

Bare in mind as well that for LNER, the Class 800 subclasses are 800/1 for 9 cars and 800/2 for 5 cars, so the opposite numbering to the 801s. Any videos you've watched will have made an mistake.

 

[800001]

800/1 are 9 car bimode Lner
800/2 are 5 car bimode LNER
801/1 are 5 electric LNER
801/2 are 9 car electric LNER

Anything else that you may have seen is incorrect, the above are the 4 subclassses for LNER.

 

[Snow1964]

800/1 are 9 car bimode Lner
800/2 are 5 car bimode LNER
801/1 are 5 electric LNER
801/2 are 9 car electric LNER

Anything else that you may have seen is incorrect, the above are the 4 subclassses for LNER.

And for completeness

800/0 units 001-036 are GWR 5 car
800/3 units 301-321 are GWR 9 car
802/0 units 001-022 are GWR 5 car
802/1 units 101-114 are GWR 9car
802/2 units 201-219 are TPE 5 car
802/3 units 301-305 are Hull trains 5 car

As ordered the GWR 802s had higher power engines for long distances off the wires to South West (Devon and Cornwall), as 800s were supposed to do mainly electric routes with bimode capacity for slower extensions and diversions. However the cut back of electrification meant their engines were modified to same higher power

 

[norbitonflyer]

800/1 are 9 car bimode Lner
800/2 are 5 car bimode LNER
801/1 are 5 electric LNER
801/2 are 9 car electric LNER

Anything else that you may have seen is incorrect, the above are the 4 subclassses for LNER.

Is there any logic to this? Why is there no class 801/0? Why are the 801 subclasses ordered the opposite way round to the 800s?. Why are the LNER Class 800 subclasses 800/1 and 800/2 numbered in between the GWR ones - 800/0 and 800/3 ?

Is tghere now any technical or operational difference between a GWR 800 and a GWR 802?

The only consistency I can see is that the even-numbered classes 800, 802, 810 are all bimodes, and the odd numbered ones (801, 803, 807) are all-electric, but Class 805 breaks that pattern as it is a bimode, and that the last digit of classes 805 and 807 match the number of cars.

 

[800001]

Is there any logic to this? Why is there no class 801/0? Why are the 801 subclasses ordered the opposite way round to the 800s?. Why are the LNER Class 800 subclasses 800/1 and 800/2 numbered in between the GWR ones - 800/0 and 800/3 ?

Is tghere now any technical or operational difference between a GWR 800 and a GWR 802?

The only consistency I can see is that the even-numbered classes 800, 802, 810 are all bimodes, and the odd numbered ones (801, 803, 807) are all-electric, but Class 805 breaks that pattern as it is a bimode, and that the last digit of classes 805 and 807 match the number of cars.

801/0 was the numbers that GWR 9 car electric sets were going to use when they were electric only. Infact 801001 actually became LNER 801201, as this unit had been built for test, GWR order changed to be bimode, so 801001 was stored at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe for 14 months before becoming 801201.

As for why the class’s are numbered as how they are, someone else can answer that.

I’ve attached a picture below of 801201, which still had the 801001 number in it when I saw it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why are the 801 subclasses ordered the opposite way round to the 800s?

I wonder if its down to the way they were ordered? The original IEP order for the East Coast had 5-car 801s but no 9-car 801s as replacing the InterCity 225 fleet wasn't part of the original order. The 30 9-car 801s were a subsequent order when the DfT exercised an option. Which could explain why the 5-car Azumas are /1s and the 9-car are /2s?

 

[Robin Procter]

Apart from either spotting the class numbers on the power cars or counting all the cars as they flash by, there don't seem to be any obvious outward external differences between the variants but I would like to learn if there are. As a railway photographer I sometimes don't spot the number, especially on the GWR units.

Railway enthusiasts nickname the GWR liveried Class800-series 'Cucumbers'.

802 EXPRESS! by Robin Procter, on Flickr

ENTHUSIASM UNDETERRED by Robin Procter, on Flickr

 

[APT618S]

Is there any logic to this? Why is there no class 801/0?

The order for 801/0 was changed to 800/3. However they seem to have kept the planned 801/0 car numbers as the 800/3 cars are 82x0xx rather than 81x3xx.

 

[LudwigTails]

very strange how the video mightve got a 80X wrong, though wouldnt be a suprise considering, without the number and from the outside, all 80Xs look the same. Or RTT got it wrong somehow and some runs got a train change. I see now.

 

[norbitonflyer]

very strange how the video mightve got a 80X wrong, though wouldnt be a suprise considering, without the number and from the outside, all 80Xs look the same. Or RTT got it wrong somehow and some runs got a train change. I see now.

The person making the bvideo may have misread the third digit - eg 800101 or 801011

 

[Robin Procter]

The person making the bvideo may have misread the third digit - eg 800101 or 801011

.... Very easy to misread. I have done that many times when trying to accurately title my photos of 800-series. The numbers are small size too, which doesn't help.

 

[TurboMan]

Apart from either spotting the class numbers on the power cars or counting all the cars as they flash by, there don't seem to be any obvious outward external differences between the variants but I would like to learn if there are. As a railway photographer I sometimes don't spot the number, especially on the GWR units.

If you're up high enough to see what's on the roof, then the difference in brake resistors gives it away on the GWR units. Have a look at this post I made about it on another thread.

 

[Robin Procter]

If you're up high enough to see what's on the roof, then the difference in brake resistors gives it away on the GWR units. Have a look at this post I made about it on another thread.

.... Thank you, I appreciate your help and that information is certainly useful for some, but I don't know what a brake resistor looks like anyway and personally I am much more interested in capturing a good picture of a train regardless of which class it is. As far as I am concerned, a GWR 800-series is a 'cucumber'.

In your photo examples, Crewkerne is my nearest railway station but Axminster the quickest to reach. The other shot looks a bit like Fairwood Jn Westbury?

Why has that thread about 125mph speed been closed for replies?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why has that thread about 125mph speed been closed for replies?

Old threads are automatically locked as a mixture of spam prevention (spam bots like digging up old threads) and to avoid old threads being bumped up the list of threads especially when this behaviour often doesn't add anything new to the discussion.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I don't know what a brake resistor looks like anyway

I don't either, but in those photos, the pale grey objects on the roof are much smaller on the 800 than the 802, so I assume that's them.

 

[Robin Procter]

Old threads are automatically locked as a mixture of spam prevention (spam bots like digging up old threads) and to avoid old threads being bumped up the list of threads especially when this behaviour often doesn't add anything new to the discussion.

.... Cheers. Thanks for the explanation. If the forum had a Like option I would have simply clicked your reply one rather than reply.