Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Energy]

The only silver lining that I can see from this is that the compensation can be used to improve rail in the East Midlands.

Some investment in stations and some cheaper fares would be a good start.

The contract is between Hitachi and Rock Rail East Midlands (the ROSCO), any compensation goes to the latter. Since no units have been handed over to EMR the lease hasn't started yet, so EMR aren't currently paying. While EMR are saving money not paying the 810 lease they'll be using most (if not all) of that paying to keep the 222s on lease.

The current winner is Eversholt, who've been able to keep the 222s on lease for longer than envisioned and now likely have a customer lined up (Scotrail and First Group) when EMR finally hand them back.

Are they mechanically similar?

The units are formed of Driving Pantograph Trailer + Motor + Trailer + Motor + Driving Pantograph Trailer. Each Motor vehicle has 4x250kw motors. These are fed either by the AC bus (mounted on the roof) or by 2x986hp/735kw engine packs, one on the motor and one on the adjacent driving vehicle. The engines need much more power than the motors as running them flat out leads to terrible reliability, as found by GWR.

The class 805s have 3 motor vehicles instead of 2, 226kw motors, and each motor vehicle is only fed by a single engine on the motor vehicle. Unfortunately, it isn't uncommon for at least one engine to be out.

Aside from the more powerful motors, I'd be surprised if the bogeys were different. In theory, the units should have been similar, with a changed body and modified motor packs to allow for an additional engine input. I'd be curious to find out how 70% of it has ended up new.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The contract is between Hitachi and Rock Rail East Midlands (the ROSCO), any compensation goes to the latter. Since no units have been handed over to EMR the lease hasn't started yet, so EMR aren't currently paying. While EMR are saving money not paying the 810 lease they'll be using most (if not all) of that paying to keep the 222s on lease.

Not paying any leasing charges until units are accepted is reported as variation to contract in the FY23. No charges have yet been raised so that indicated they got no leasing income in FY24. Running up more miles on the 222 will get them closer to needing an overhaul presumably but depends whose liable for that.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Aside from the more powerful motors, I'd be surprised if the bogeys were different. In theory, the units should have been similar, with a changed body and modified motor packs to allow for an additional engine input. I'd be curious to find out how 70% of it has ended up new.

Presumably the driving cars have had a new design - floor down because the floors presumably have to be higher to get the MTUs under ?

 

[bunnahabhain]

The contract is between Hitachi and Rock Rail East Midlands (the ROSCO), any compensation goes to the latter. Since no units have been handed over to EMR the lease hasn't started yet, so EMR aren't currently paying. While EMR are saving money not paying the 810 lease they'll be using most (if not all) of that paying to keep the 222s on lease.

The current winner is Eversholt, who've been able to keep the 222s on lease for longer than envisioned and now likely have a customer lined up (Scotrail and First Group) when EMR finally hand them back.

The units are formed of Driving Pantograph Trailer + Motor + Trailer + Motor + Driving Pantograph Trailer. Each Motor vehicle has 4x250kw motors. These are fed either by the AC bus (mounted on the roof) or by 2x986hp/735kw engine packs, one on the motor and one on the adjacent driving vehicle. The engines need much more power than the motors as running them flat out leads to terrible reliability, as found by GWR.

The class 805s have 3 motor vehicles instead of 2, 226kw motors, and each motor vehicle is only fed by a single engine on the motor vehicle. Unfortunately, it isn't uncommon for at least one engine to be out.

Aside from the more powerful motors, I'd be surprised if the bogeys were different. In theory, the units should have been similar, with a changed body and modified motor packs to allow for an additional engine input. I'd be curious to find out how 70% of it has ended up new.

The Italians redesigned anything they could redesign with results as spectacular as the NS Fyra.

 

[Energy]

Running up more miles on the 222 will get them closer to needing an overhaul presumably but depends whose liable for that.

I'm not sure about the 222 lease, but most leases tend to be "soggy," with TOCs covering general maintenance and the ROSCO covering the big-ticket items.

Presumably the driving cars have had a new design - floor down because the floors presumably have to be higher to get the MTUs under ?

Almost certainly, IIRC the driving vehicles on 80X have a lower floor than the motor vehicles since they don't need to fit engines.

The Italians redesigned anything they could redesign with results as spectacular as the NS Fyra.

Is there any detail you can add to this? I don't doubt it but I'm struggling to see how so much design work was needed on this.

 

[PG]

Is there any detail you can add to this? I don't doubt it but I'm struggling to see how so much design work was needed on this.

I've no idea but my interpretation of that is they redesigned more than was strictly necessary. Who knows, they might actually improve things over the 80x in the long run - but I won't hold my breath!

 

[800001]

810004 just arrived at Sheffield as 5Q41 from Old Dalby.
Now due to work 5Q42 to St Pancras.

Realtime Trains | 5Q42 1031 Sheffield to St Pancras International | 16/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q42 1031 departure from Sheffield to St Pancras International on 16/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Trainbike46]

Some coaches of 810002 are in Italy at the Pistoia plant, and I believe the design work was also done there for the 810s

Thank you for clarifying!

So actual construction at Newton Aycliffe (good!), but design work at Pistoia is worrying given the quality of previous designs there (e.g. Fyra, IC4, etc.) has been questionable

 

[bunnahabhain]

Is there any detail you can add to this? I don't doubt it but I'm struggling to see how so much design work was needed on this.

Not really, it would be too difficult to explain. It is a phrase I have heard repeatedly in relation to the 810s about a great number of things, something that worked fine on the 80x has been completely changed for the 810.

 

[eastwestdivide]

So actual construction at Newton Aycliffe (good!), but design work at Pistoia is worrying given the quality of previous designs there (e.g. Fyra, IC4, etc.) has been questionable

On the other side of the coin, since the 2015 Hitachi takeover of Pistoia, they’ve been churning our multiple units (eg Rock, Frecciarossa 1000) for Italy without any horror stories that I know of.

 

[Trainbike46]

On the other side of the coin, since the 2015 Hitachi takeover of Pistoia, they’ve been churning our multiple units (eg Rock, Frecciarossa 1000) for Italy without any horror stories that I know of.

I've heard there were built quality issues with the rock, but much less than previous iterations there. Didn't the pistoia-built 80x suffer from more build quality issues as well, at least initially?

 

[InTheEastMids]

I've heard there were built quality issues with the rock

Yes, I had the misfortune of sitting down over Christmas to watch "Red One" on Amazon Prime. Horrifying stuff.

something that worked fine on the 80x has been completely changed for the 810.

The shorter bodyshells is one reason to do this. Another issue might be supply chains - perhaps parts have been discontinued or the supplier is out of business; i.e. there are good reasons why things that work perfectly well get changed that are not always down to cost (although in many cases they are)

Really hope the 810s are being used as a case study as to why having strategic leadership that doesn't change its mind every couple of years (the whole point of strategic decisions is that you dont' get to revisit them frequently, or whenever it's politically convenient). With the power of hindsight, a fleet of 802 derivatives (perhaps 6/9 cars powered) would be a better fit with the MML now that electrification seems to be proceeding as far as Trent, would fit St Pancras platforms and allow the MML to go for growth given high speed rail to Sheffield/Nottingham seems to be in the "not in my lifetime" box.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, I had the misfortune of sitting down over Christmas to watch "Red One" on Amazon Prime. Horrifying stuff.


The shorter bodyshells is one reason to do this. Another issue might be supply chains - perhaps parts have been discontinued or the supplier is out of business; i.e. there are good reasons why things that work perfectly well get changed that are not always down to cost (although in many cases they are)

Really hope the 810s are being used as a case study as to why having strategic leadership that doesn't change its mind every couple of years (the whole point of strategic decisions is that you dont' get to revisit them frequently, or whenever it's politically convenient). With the power of hindsight, a fleet of 802 derivatives (perhaps 6/9 cars powered) would be a better fit with the MML now that electrification seems to be proceeding as far as Trent, would fit St Pancras platforms and allow the MML to go for growth given high speed rail to Sheffield/Nottingham seems to be in the "not in my lifetime" box.

Only design is being done to Trent until the spending review is completed later this year can't see any announcement on the physical works

 

[XCTurbostar]

There are definitely issues with the 810s.
I observed 810004 on Thursday at Sheffield and another location where the driver had to key out several times before the brakes came off (Lights are linked to the reverser position)
There also appeared to be a white light on the left side of the front-facing LCD which I assume indicated safety systems being isolated.

 

[tram21]

There are definitely issues with the 810s.
I observed 810004 on Thursday at Sheffield and another location where the driver had to key out several times before the brakes came off (Lights are linked to the reverser position)
There also appeared to be a white light on the left side of the front-facing LCD which I assume indicated safety systems being isolated.

Or could it potentially just be driver inexperience and the 810s having a slightly more complicated operation procedure? It may well be there are issues, but it also may not be.

 

[tram21]

No '810' test runs have run for quite a few weeks. Does anyone know why?

 

[QSK19]

My throwaway suggestion several years ago - introduction into service in 2026 - seems to be becoming an unfortunate reality at this rate…

 

[800001]

My throwaway suggestion several years ago - introduction into service in 2026 - seems to be becoming an unfortunate reality at this rate…

I agree with your suggested date.
Strong info from sources I can not quote, suggest there that continues to be issues coming up continuously with these units!
Dates and deadlines continue to come and go with no firm dates pencilled in for any units to be handed over to EMR.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Do we have a solid list of which units have been built of the 33?

 

[800001]

Do we have a solid list of which units have been built of the 33?

Rail magazine a few issues ago quoted various numbers.

But, physically seen by myself at Newton Aycliffe are:-

810005/006/007/008/009/010/012

Also seen have been single cars of 810013 being placed into the test sheds last week.

At Dalby:- 810001/003/004

Believed to be in Italy:- 810002

 

[XCTurbostar]

Many thanks 800001

 

[Supercoss]

Test runs resume next week with daytime trip into St Pancras, unit lays over 14:15-15:15 whilst lunch is taken on North end of plat 3
5Q41 / 5Q42 to watch from ## Wednesday ##
usual disclaimers of what comes off the test track etc

 

[Mollman]

Test runs resume next week with daytime trip into St Pancras, unit lays over 14:15-15:15 whilst lunch is taken on North end of plat 3
5Q41 / 5Q42 to watch from ## Wednesday ##
usual disclaimers of what comes off the test track etc

That sounds like there will be a table set up on the platform with waiter service!

 

[Trainman40083]

Rail magazine a few issues ago quoted various numbers.

But, physically seen by myself at Newton Aycliffe are:-

810005/006/007/008/009/010/012

Also seen have been single cars of 810013 being placed into the test sheds last week.

At Dalby:- 810001/003/004

Believed to be in Italy:- 810002

You get the feeling we won't see that many enter service with EMR in 2025. That may well affect the operator hoping to take on the 222s.

 

[800001]

You get the feeling we won't see that many enter service with EMR in 2025. That may well affect the operator hoping to take on the 222s.

I genuinely feel like it will be 2026 before the first enters passenger service.

 

[43066]

I genuinely feel like it will be 2026 before the first enters passenger service.

It is starting to feel like that…

 

[Aspen90]

Problems with running in multiple is the latest… It’ll be next year before they have a passenger on.

 

[Killingworth]

Problems with running in multiple is the latest… It’ll be next year before they have a passenger on.

At the recent EMR Stakeholder conference the emphasis was totally on refurbishing 158, 170 and 360s and December regional timetable changes. These were my particular interest so I may have missed any nuances about MML and 810s but I got the feeling that attention was being directed elsewhere. I've previously expressed doubts about introduction before 2026 so it's not a surprise.

Meanwhile, Scotrail (assuming rumours are proved true) are going to have a longer wait for Meridian stock requiring more attention.

 

[tram21]

At the recent EMR conference

Just curious what the EMR conference is?

 

[800001]

Just curious what the EMR conference is?

A staff conference for EMR staff?

Problems with running in multiple is the latest… It’ll be next year before they have a passenger on.

Have they started mainline 10 car testing? Or is it still just at Dalby?