Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[jimm]

80Xs supposedly can only come in an odd number of vehicles (5,7,9,11??), I'm not sure why.

5 cars is good for off-peak, and 10 cars is loads for peak services. EMR can't justify 9/10 cars all day, and a mixed fleet would be more difficult operationally and would require a much larger depot to deal with longer units.

Looks good, vast improvement over the IET interior.

If the moderators would allow me just a tiny bit of leeway to clarify the question of formation lengths, the DfT's Intercity Express Programme specification for what became the 80x series of trains set a maximum permitted length for a formation at 312 metres - ie a 12-car formation of 26m coaches (see page 19, section 3.3) and a minimum length of 130m - ie a 5-car formation.

This note suggests that any length of train within those limits is permitted - though obviously local infrastructure like platform lengths at the likes of St Pancras, King's Cross and Paddington can also play a part in decision-making.

It must be possible to add Intermediate IEP Vehicles to an IEP Unit subject to the IEP Unit still being no greater than the maximum length identified in TS223.

In Annex D of the specification (sections 2 & 3, pages 77-79) there is a set of train formations, showing what facilities would be required in 5-car (including a high-density version without a kitchen), 8-car, 9-car, 10-car, 11-car and 12-car formations. The last three were described as 'indicative for pricing purposes only'.

The full specification is at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

 

[Martin222002]

So I'm going to assume yet another cab designed without union involvement, with Hitachi's usual level of Human Factors knowledge.

Mods teams will be nice and busy...(!)

Worth saying this isn't the case as there's been a cab mock up at Etches Park for quite some time.



Here is Modern Railways 'Pan Up' columnist Ian Walmsley sitting in the cab mock up in July 2021. Sadly the link the the article this is from is behind a subscriber paywall.

THE SEAT OF AURORA

East Midlands Railway has finalised the new seats for its new trains, and they’re completely useless – as ironing boards

www.modernrailways.com

 

[Trainman40083]

It requires constant high amount of pressure to keep it down. So for a drive from say Plymouth to London , that's over 3 hours of pressure and stress to the knees, shins lower legs and ankles. I suppose on MML, the longest journeys will be what 2 hours from Sheffield to London? But too be honest, an hour or so is too much with the new type pedals...

Injury claims incoming in a few years time then, cos they didn't listen to the staff that used it.

 

[800001]

It requires constant high amount of pressure to keep it down. So for a drive from say Plymouth to London , that's over 3 hours of pressure and stress to the knees, shins lower legs and ankles. I suppose on MML, the longest journeys will be what 2 hours from Sheffield to London? But too be honest, an hour or so is too much with the new type pedals...

Surely if it’s as bad as that drivers should be refusing to work it under health and safety grounds? Or close call it after each and every drive to build up a case to say how bad it is?

 

[Energy]

If the moderators would allow me just a tiny bit of leeway to clarify the question of formation lengths, the DfT's Intercity Express Programme specification for what became the 80x series of trains set a maximum permitted length for a formation at 312 metres - ie a 12-car formation of 26m coaches (see page 19, section 3.3) and a minimum length of 130m - ie a 5-car formation.

This note suggests that any length of train within those limits is permitted - though obviously local infrastructure like platform lengths at the likes of St Pancras, King's Cross and Paddington can also play a part in decision-making.



In Annex D of the specification (sections 2 & 3, pages 77-79) there is a set of train formations, showing what facilities would be required in 5-car (including a high-density version without a kitchen), 8-car, 9-car, 10-car, 11-car and 12-car formations. The last three were described as 'indicative for pricing purposes only'.

The full specification is at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b82e40f0b63d72fc7f58/tts-redacted.pdf

IIRC 12 car was more likely to be 6+6 than fixed formation.

The IEP spec was meant to allow those lengths but it seems that now you can't buy them in even lengths.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s the same cab as other models……

Good to hear that some common sense is prevailing over this fleet which may finally earn a crust for the taxpayer 66 months after they were ordered.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely if it’s as bad as that drivers should be refusing to work it under health and safety grounds? Or close call it after each and every drive to build up a case to say how bad it is?

Yeah there are examples of that, with drivers reporting every time they drive a new pedal, or drivers taking time out on route to give their legs a rest , and drivers out right failing it too. A questionnaire went out recently, supposedly in conjunction with Aslef, as I think the problem is starting to be taken seriously by all involved. The fact LNER are now hogging all the old type pedals in reserve may cause a problem though, as at present I believe there is no fix.

Injury claims incoming in a few years time then, cos they didn't listen to the staff that used it.

Absolutely.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yeah there are examples of that, with drivers reporting every time they drive a new pedal, or drivers taking time out on route to give their legs a rest , and drivers out right failing it too. A questionnaire went out recently, supposedly in conjunction with Aslef, as I think the problem is starting to be taken seriously by all involved. The fact LNER are now hogging all the old type pedals in reserve may cause a problem though, as at present I believe there is no fix.

If the customer tells the supplier they want the existing arrangement it can be sorted. Also why would Hitachi change it are we sure there hasn't been a change to standards?

 

[irish_rail]

If the customer tells the supplier they want the existing arrangement it can be sorted. Also why would Hitachi change it are we sure there hasn't been a change to standards?

The existing supplier has gone out of business hence the problem.

 

[PG]

The existing supplier has gone out of business hence the problem.

Seems crazy that the replacement supplier couldn't just replicate the existing pedal - then again this is the railway!

 

[dosxuk]

Seems crazy that the replacement supplier couldn't just replicate the existing pedal - then again this is the railway!

This presumes the replacement supplier has been asked to replicate the existing pedal, not just supply an equivalent from their own product range.

 

[PG]

This presumes the replacement supplier has been asked to replicate the existing pedal, not just supply an inferior equivalent from their own product range.

I've subtly amended your reply to reflect the apparent reality...

 

[800001]

This presumes the replacement supplier has been asked to replicate the existing pedal, not just supply an equivalent from their own product range.

Would train operating company not have to agree to these changes, if it is different to previous versions?

Or is it a case of Train supplier (Hitachi/Agility) can use which ever supplier they wish?

 

[Mikw]

It requires constant high amount of pressure to keep it down. So for a drive from say Plymouth to London , that's over 3 hours of pressure and stress to the knees, shins lower legs and ankles. I suppose on MML, the longest journeys will be what 2 hours from Sheffield to London? But too be honest, an hour or so is too much with the new type pedals...

How long before the driver's "leave" their bag on it then?

 

[800001]

How long before the driver's "leave" their bag on it then?

What they going to do lift the bag each time the safety system requires it to be acknowledged?

I very much doubt any driver will be placing a bag on it!

 

[43066]

How long before the driver's "leave" their bag on it then?

You’ll get into serious trouble if you get caught doing things like that, as it’s impeding the operation of a safety system.

There was a case a few years ago of a London Overground driver using a stick of some sort to hold the DSD/vigilance pedal down, which worked fine up until he forgot about it, left it in situ and the next person reported it! I seem to remember a safety bulletin was sent out around it.

 

[Mikw]

What they going to do lift the bag each time the safety system requires it to be acknowledged?

I very much doubt any driver will be placing a bag on it!

I don't know, i'm not a driver, but it was said it was an abysmal design and hard to press down. So i was just thinking -as has happened in the past with poor design choices that don't seem to have been done with any input from actual drivers - that some may try and circumnavigate it. Not that i'm advising that of course.

You’ll get into serious trouble if you get caught doing things like that, as it’s impeding the operation of a safety system.

There was a case a few years ago of a London Overground driver using a stick of some sort to hold the DSD/vigilance pedal down, which worked fine up until he forgot about it, left it in situ and the next person reported it! I seem to remember a safety bulletin was sent out around it.

I think i heard about that one.

 

[43066]

What they going to do lift the bag each time the safety system requires it to be acknowledged?

I very much doubt any driver will be placing a bag on it!

On some stock the vigilance only sounds if you don’t move any of the controls for a set period so, especially if doing stop start metro work, it’s possible never to need to raise and lower the pedal to acknowledge it (I’m not sure about the 8XX). You’re right it wouldn’t work on stock where the vigilance needs to be acknowledged regardless.

 

[800001]

On some stock the vigilance only sounds if you don’t move any of the controls for a set period so, especially if doing stop start metro work, it’s possible never to need to raise and lower the pedal to acknowledge it (I’m not sure about the 8XX). You’re right it wouldn’t work on stock where the vigilance needs to be acknowledged regardless.

Ah, I thought it went off at random times, and required to be lifted then pressed again.

 

[Aspen90]

What they going to do lift the bag each time the safety system requires it to be acknowledged?

I very much doubt any driver will be placing a bag on it!

Yes the stock I drive you just move the power controller a fraction and it keeps it from going off. I know of freight drivers using their bag or else they wouldn’t be able to fly through Lincoln with their feet up! I cringe when I see them doing it!

 

[td97]

A video of the depot work at Etches Park has been released by contractor Kier

Train kept a-rollin’ all night long! Not just an Aerosmith song, but a reality for our Etches Park Depot team as they hit another milestone!

Check out the video below which shows the first-ever test train from East Midlands Railway's existing rolling-stock entering its brand-new heavy-duty maintenance shed in Derby.

The test of the mechanical and electrical systems along with the depot protection system, which keeps colleagues safe through visual and audible alarms during train movement, went down without a hitch.

This all happened in the same week that the team landed a new 30-tonne generator and 25-tonne substation/transformer onto the site which will power the 180 metres of overhead electrified test track built for the new Hitachi Class 810 fleet of trains.

It's a visually momentous milestone representing the collaboration with our supply chain partners and client that made a transformation project possible with minimal disruption to day-to-day operations.

Kier Transportation on LinkedIn: #infrastructure #rail #safety

Train kept a-rollin’ all night long! Not just an Aerosmith song, but a reality for our Etches Park Depot team as they hit another milestone! Check out…

www.linkedin.com

 

[Aspen90]

Not gospel but ‘reliable’ - they’re getting 3 extra units free from Hitachi due to how long the delay in production has been. That means 36 units instead of 33. The extra 3 units will be at the end of the build queue for Avanti et al.

 

[DJH1971]

Any word of any more 810's due to be delivered soon?

 

[Aspen90]

Any word of any more 810's due to be delivered soon?

Not as far as I know. 810001 is at Etches for a ‘fault to be rectified’ by Hitachi. Will be there a few days apparently.

 

[800001]

Not gospel but ‘reliable’ - they’re getting 3 extra units free from Hitachi due to how long the delay in production has been. That means 36 units instead of 33. The extra 3 units will be at the end of the build queue for Avanti et al.

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

It was April 1st yesterday

 

[800001]

It was April 1st yesterday

Fully aware of that, I can read a calendar!

 

[43096]

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

It's been done before - ADtranz delivered two extra 357s free to Porterbrook/c2c in compensation for late delivery.

In fact, Hitachi would probably prefer to deliver extra trains in compensation - there is the opportunity to provide more after sales support for a start.

 

[LowLevel]

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

It's not exactly without precedent. TPE received several extra 185s for free on top of their order from Siemens owing to delays in the production process.

 

[jw]

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

Alstom built an additional 2x Class 334 EMUs for ScotRail as a goodwill gesture as a result of delays and technical issues, so not without precedent...