Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[greatvoyager]

Why does the MML need shorter body shells? Is it a gauge issue with middle and end of cars swinging out more on curves? I know Mk4s won't fit up the MML on some platforms. It does seem unsatisfactory to have different fleet requirements on one of the three northbound main lines. Apologies as I am sure I've overlooked the answer elsewhere.

Its because when they run in double formation, the longer 80x unit would be too long for the platform at St Pancras' so they have to be shorter.

 

[43096]

Its because when they run in double formation, the longer 80x unit would be too long for the platform at St Pancras' so they have to be shorter.

Correct. 10 cars of the Hitachi sets will be 240m, as will a 12-car 360.

 

[greatvoyager]

Correct. 10 cars of the Hitachi sets will be 240m, as will a 12-car 360.

That will at least be consistent.

 

[greatvoyager]

When they finally enter service, St Pancras will be much quieter.

 

[greatvoyager]

Do we know whether the uprated engine will be fitted?

 

[cactustwirly]

Do we know whether the uprated engine will be fitted?

Uprated engine?
There's only one type of engine fitted to the 80xs

 

[greatvoyager]

Uprated engine?
There's only one type of engine fitted to the 80xs

Last time I heard, the GWR units have a 940hp engine for use on the steep Devon banks and LNER units had the standard 750hp engine.

 

[cactustwirly]

Last time I heard, the GWR units have a 940hp engine for use on the steep Devon banks and LNER units had the standard 750hp engine.

Same engine, the LNER units have different software de-rating the engine

 

[PG]

Uprated engine?
There's only one type of engine fitted to the 80xs

I could be wrong but this maybe refers to the original specification of the 80x engines being restricted in order to provide a longer life ie not run at their full power rating.

After the government partially cancelled electrification TOCs pointed out that this would mean services running slower than previously and so DfT had to renegotiate the contracts with Hitachi to allow the engines to run at full power.

 

[greatvoyager]

Same engine, the LNER units have different software de-rating the engine

In that case, the question is are the 804s going to be de-rated?

 

[gingertom]

In that case, the question is are the 804s going to be de-rated?

there's more to this than meets the eye. Someone posted upthread that one of the Railway magazines has shared details of the proposed configuration of the 5 cars and there's only 2 motored vehicles. This would have an effect on performance on electric, perhaps limiting them to 125mph (the 800/801/802s are 140mph on electric once ERTMS is rolled out). It was also announced that Hitachi have devised a way to deploy 4 diesel power packs. This would mean one diesel power pack per bogie, which means there's sufficient power to run the traction motors flat out on diesel, meaning no difference in performance on diesel vs electric. But with a top speed of 125mph. This looks interesting.

 

[greatvoyager]

there's more to this than meets the eye. Someone posted upthread that one of the Railway magazines has shared details of the proposed configuration of the 5 cars and there's only 2 motored vehicles. This would have an effect on performance on electric, perhaps limiting them to 125mph (the 800/801/802s are 140mph on electric once ERTMS is rolled out). It was also announced that Hitachi have devised a way to deploy 4 diesel power packs. This would mean one diesel power pack per bogie, which means there's sufficient power to run the traction motors flat out on diesel, meaning no difference in performance on diesel vs electric. But with a top speed of 125mph. This looks interesting.

That still doesn't answer the question though. Can they have one extra engine and LNER software to derate? The power output of the derated engine, 750hp, is exactly the same as the current 222s.

 

[43096]

That still doesn't answer the question though. Can they have one extra engine and LNER software to derate? The power output of the derated engine, 750hp, is exactly the same as the current 222s.

But only 4 engines for 5 cars, unlike a 222 which is 5 engines for 5 cars. As they have to match a 222 for performance, they will presumably have the full 940hp rating: that would give them 3,760hp vs 3,750hp for a 222.

 

[greatvoyager]

But only 4 engines for 5 cars, unlike a 222 which is 5 engines for 5 cars. As they have to match a 222 for performance, they will presumably have the full 940hp rating: that would give them 3,760hp vs 3,750hp for a 222.

And are the 804 carriages going to weigh more, do we know?

 

[gingertom]

And are the 804 carriages going to weigh more, do we know?

can't find the information to hand quickly but were the Voyagers not built using steel? The 80x is made of aluminium, therefore the 80x would be slightly lighter.

 

[PG]

can't find the information to hand quickly but were the Voyagers not built using steel? The 80x is made of aluminium, therefore the 80x would be slightly lighter.

IIRC a year or so back Modern Railways published details of the weights of the various coaches of an IET.

Off the top of my head weights varied considerably from 38 to 52 tonnes per coach.

Given that the MML units are shorter coach length I think it's near impossible to say with much certainty what the weight is or if it more than a 222 so we don't yet know if there is more or less hp/tonne?

 

[323217]

Motored vehicles doesn't necessarily have to mean that these are the only vehicles which can have an engine mounted on them though, I guess?

 

[greatvoyager]

can't find the information to hand quickly but were the Voyagers not built using steel? The 80x is made of aluminium, therefore the 80x would be slightly lighter.

I believe that's correct. If the 80x are slightly lighter than the 22x, than logically they wouldn't need as much power to reach 125mph, but then again I'm probably wrong.

 

[gingertom]

I believe that's correct. If the 80x are slightly lighter than the 22x, than logically they wouldn't need as much power to reach 125mph, but then again I'm probably wrong.

Wait and see. I think you're not too far wide of the mark.

5x 750 is 3750 bhp, more or less the same as 4x 940 = 3760bhp. With lighter bodies but having a couple of transformers to lug about the power-to-weight ratios will be as near as dammit the same. Modern IGBT traction converters will be a bonus for the 804 so it should have the edge in performance, but there won't be very much in it either way.

 

[Nym]

The Voyagers and Meridians use IGBT traction already.

 

[greatvoyager]

The Voyagers and Meridians use IGBT traction already.

Just out of interest, is the IGBT traction always been on the 22x units? If so, has it been developed or changed in any way for the 80x units?

 

[greatvoyager]

Does anyone know how the profile of the nose will be changed?

 

[43096]

Just out of interest, is the IGBT traction always been on the 22x units? If so, has it been developed or changed in any way for the 80x units?

The 22x units had IGBTs from new. Obviously there is going to have been some development since, but it’s a difficult comparison as one is Alstom the other Hitachi.

 

[gingertom]

The 22x units had IGBTs from new.

I've learned something new today.

 

[Doomotron]

Does anyone know how the profile of the nose will be changed?

The renders show it being flatter and possibly steeper.

 

[greatvoyager]

The renders show it being flatter and possibly steeper.

Makes sense, probably to account for the shorter vehicles.

 

[Roast Veg]

The use of IGBT motors aligns near bang on the turn of the millenium for deliveries, so no particular surprise that the 22x units all carry them. The very last units without were the 323s I believe, which have been since retrofitted.

 

[bramling]

The use of IGBT motors aligns near bang on the turn of the millenium for deliveries, so no particular surprise that the 22x units all carry them. The very last units without were the 323s I believe, which have been since retrofitted.

I think I’m right in saying the 365 just beats the 323s. The 365s entered service around 1997, and have GTO traction packages (IIRC as per the 465/2s and 466).

 

[MatthewRead]

I think I’m right in saying the 365 just beats the 323s. The 365s entered service around 1997, and have GTO traction packages (IIRC as per the 465/2s and 466).

I thought the 365's entered service in 1995.

 

[greatvoyager]

The use of IGBT motors aligns near bang on the turn of the millenium for deliveries, so no particular surprise that the 22x units all carry them. The very last units without were the 323s I believe, which have been since retrofitted.

Thanks for confirming.