Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[43096]

I think I’m right in saying the 365 just beats the 323s. The 365s entered service around 1997, and have GTO traction packages (IIRC as per the 465/2s and 466).

Yes, the 365s were BREL-built but with GEC-Alsthom traction systems (as per 465/2 and 466) so were a sort of hybrid of the original Networker build (BREL built had Brush equipment, Met-Camm built had GEC-A).

Jubilee line (1996) tube stock would have been around the same time (entered service 1997). However, the four extra 1996 stock sets were built in 2005, and I think have GTOs for maintenance/spares reasons - so think they may well be the last of all.

 

[Roast Veg]

Ah yes, I forgot about the slow delivery of both the 365s and 96 stock. Out of date by the time they arrived, by comparison to the 323s and the 95 stock, which beat them into service and carried IGBT-VVVF motors.

 

[D365]

Ah yes, I forgot about the slow delivery of both the 365s and 96 stock. Out of date by the time they arrived, by comparison to the 323s and the 95 stock, which beat them into service and carried IGBT-VVVF motors.

The Class 323s were delivered with GTO inverters, it was only recently that they were switched to IGBT electronics.

I was under the impression that the Class 365s entered into service first, then the 96 stock, then the 95 stock.

 

[Roast Veg]

Yes, I'm confusing myself now, of course the 323s were GTO. The 96 and 95 stock were developed in parallel production lines, but I am led to believe that Alston had more flexibility with the 95 contract and made several modifications that were not signed off on the 96 stock.

 

[CTS1990]

Apologies if this question has been asked: I did check the thread beforehand...

As I understand, the MML wires are only going as far as Kettering. How would the Class 804s transfer to diesel power on a fast service to Leicester? There are very few Sheffield services that call at Kettering, save for a few peak hour services.

 

[D365]

Modern IGBT traction converters will be a bonus for the 804 so it should have the edge in performance, but there won't be very much in it either way.

The improvements in inverter technology would contribute more to reducing thermal losses, and improved reliability of the traction equipment. I can't imagine that the efficiency of an IGBT inverter would have much impact on the mechanical performance (i.e. acceleration) of an electrical or electro-diesel multiple unit. From what I have learned in my studies I don't think there have been any significant technological breakthroughs since IGBT technology was introduced en-masse in the 1990s.

As I understand, the MML wires are only going as far as Kettering. How would the Class 804s transfer to diesel power on a fast service to Leicester? There are very few Sheffield services that call at Kettering, save for a few peak hour services.

AT300s are capable of switching between electric and diesel operation whilst in motion. Once the current (recently extended) electrification scheme is complete, the Class 804s will operate on overhead electrification between St Pancras and Market Harborough.

 

[CTS1990]

Thank you for your reply, you learn something every day. Drivers must have to be vigilant if they are switching modes at 125mph!

 

[greatvoyager]

Thank you for your reply, you learn something every day. Drivers must have to be vigilant if they are switching modes at 125mph!

Absolutely, and it makes it more convenient too.

 

[hexagon789]

Drivers must have to be vigilant if they are switching modes at 125mph!

On the GWML it's done automatically; can't remember if it's by balises or not though, but likely the MML would be similar

 

[irish_rail]

On the GWML it's done automatically; can't remember if it's by balises or not though, but likely the MML would be similar

Not quite true , we are still manually changing from diesel to electric and vice versa. If you forget, the "kill balise" will operate and drop the pantigraph, but this is very much frowned upon if it occurs and could result in action against the driver for forgetting. In future APCO should change power automatically but nearly 3 years in it still isn't in operation and no idea when it will be

 

[hexagon789]

Not quite true , we are still manually changing from diesel to electric and vice versa. If you forget, the "kill balise" will operate and drop the pantigraph, but this is very much frowned upon if it occurs and could result in action against the driver for forgetting. In future APCO should change power automatically but nearly 3 years in it still isn't in operation and no idea when it will be

Ah, i remember reading on another forum about the balises allowing an automatic changeover so I assumed it was operational!

Likely the MML will get "kill balises"?

 

[greatvoyager]

Not quite true , we are still manually changing from diesel to electric and vice versa. If you forget, the "kill balise" will operate and drop the pantigraph, but this is very much frowned upon if it occurs and could result in action against the driver for forgetting. In future APCO should change power automatically but nearly 3 years in it still isn't in operation and no idea when it will be

Ah, i remember reading on another forum about the balises allowing an automatic changeover so I assumed it was operational!

Likely the MML will get "kill balises"?

Even if it's automatic, surely there would be the facility for manual operation in case the automatic system fails.

 

[hexagon789]

Even if it's automatic, surely there would be the facility for manual operation in case the automatic system fails.

You would imagine so, especially as the GWML has apparently been doing so for 3 years!

 

[bluegoblin7]

The 96 and 95 stock were developed in parallel production lines, but I am led to believe that Alston had more flexibility with the 95 contract and made several modifications that were not signed off on the 96 stock.

Sort of. The 1995 stock contract was for “Design, Build, Maintain”, i.e. cheapest cost over the life of the fleet. It’s a PFI scheme that is still active with the fleet being owned by Alstom and not LU. Maintenance is done by Alstom with the requisite number of trains provided for service each day.

Conversely, the 1996 stock contract was cheapest build cost, with a separate maintenance package. This fleet is owned outright by LU with all maintenance done in-house, including mid-life overhaul.

Resultingly it was beneficial for GTO technology to be worked on and perfected for the 95TS, with the then-cheaper and better known IGBT kit fulfilling the 96TS contract.

Despite their designations, the 96TS are the older tech, and entered service first in late 1997. The 95TS are the newer tech and entered service in Spring 1998.

 

[greatvoyager]

You would imagine so, especially as the GWML has apparently been doing so for 3 years!

Good point.

 

[irish_rail]

You would imagine so, especially as the GWML has apparently been doing so for 3 years!

No, as I said the GWML isn't using the auto changeover at present. The plan is we will , just not in use yet. Though the kill balises are in place incase the driver forgets to changeover.

 

[43096]

Resultingly it was beneficial for GTO technology to be worked on and perfected for the 95TS, with the then-cheaper and better known IGBT kit fulfilling the 96TS contract.

Wrong way round: 95TS for the Northern line had the then new IGBTs, 96TS for the Jubilee has GTOs.

 

[greatvoyager]

No, as I said the GWML isn't using the auto changeover at present. The plan is we will , just not in use yet. Though the kill balises are in place incase the driver forgets to changeover.

Hopefully it will be working by the time the 804s are built and in service.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Wrong way round: 95TS for the Northern line had the then new IGBTs, 96TS for the Jubilee has GTOs.

I confess to always getting them confused and didn’t think to check! You are quite right.

 

[hexagon789]

No, as I said the GWML isn't using the auto changeover at present. The plan is we will , just not in use yet. Though the kill balises are in place incase the driver forgets to changeover.

That's what I was saying you said though, that it has been manual for 3 years and not automatic

 

[Nym]

Just out of interest, is the IGBT traction always been on the 22x units? If so, has it been developed or changed in any way for the 80x units?

I believe from talking to some Hitachi bods and seeing how much EMC testing they've had to do that they in fact use SiC substrates (Silicon Carbide) as apposed to the more usual, so it would be a step change from IGBTs. However, from the magnitude of EMC testing and the information gleemed from these discussions, I stand by my previous sentiment in that SiC semiconductors are not ready for the rail industry yet, not in the UK anyway.

 

[greatvoyager]

I believe from talking to some Hitachi bods and seeing how much EMC testing they've had to do that they in fact use SiC substrates (Silicon Carbide) as apposed to the more usual, so it would be a step change from IGBTs. However, from the magnitude of EMC testing and the information gleemed from these discussions, I stand by my previous sentiment in that SiC semiconductors are not ready for the rail industry yet, not in the UK anyway.

Ah, okay.

 

[Meerkat]

If these trains are going to be diesel south of Bedford until the wires are upgraded does that mean they leave St Pancras on diesel or leave on electric and swap once the track speed limit exceeds the wires limit?
I assume they trust the engines will start and won’t idle them at St Pancras just to check?

I still can’t get my head round new bimodes running diesel under wires for a year! Is there no way to speed the upgrade up?

 

[Hairy Bear]

Ah, i remember reading on another forum about the balises allowing an automatic changeover so I assumed it was operational!

Likely the MML will get "kill balises"?

If you can point me to a picture of one , i'll confirm that there already in place at Kettering.

 

[hexagon789]

If you can point me to a picture of one , i'll confirm that there already in place at Kettering.

Wouldn't know where to begin with that. I could try and find GWML ones but for all I know the MML could be using a different designs if indeed it will have them

 

[Raul_Duke]

If these trains are going to be diesel south of Bedford until the wires are upgraded does that mean they leave St Pancras on diesel or leave on electric and swap once the track speed limit exceeds the wires limit?
I assume they trust the engines will start and won’t idle them at St Pancras just to check?

I still can’t get my head round new bimodes running diesel under wires for a year! Is there no way to speed the upgrade up?

If the wires are 100mph that would get you to just after Cricklewood Station.....

 

[Meerkat]

If the wires are 100mph that would get you to just after Cricklewood Station.....

That would be worthwhile yes? The accelerating bit in an urban area, and St Pancras desperately needs to get rid of the diesel fumes drifting right down the station.
I assume it’s still worthwhile on the way in - regen braking I assume?

 

[Raul_Duke]

That would be worthwhile yes? The accelerating bit in an urban area, and St Pancras desperately needs to get rid of the diesel fumes drifting right down the station.
I assume it’s still worthwhile on the way in - regen braking I assume?

From a performance point of view it’s unlikely to be worth it.

However, will internal combustion vehicles of any kind be allowed in central London at all in five years time?

 

[Meerkat]

Brand new trains stinking out St Pancras and leaving on diesel would be very bad PR.

 

[greatvoyager]

Brand new trains stinking out St Pancras and leaving on diesel would be very bad PR.

Maybe they can start on electric power at St Pancras and go to diesel once out of the station, passing Kentish Town maybe?