Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

There are still significant issues with 805s particularly the diesels. Discussions on the 805/807 thread suggest that it's unusual for 805s to have all three diesels working. Two seems to be normal.

I do get an impression that Avanti had decided that the 221s were being returned and pushed the 805s into service and that they'd work on the issues. Lots of services were cancelled during the transition period when right balances of trained crews weren't available. ( But I'm not sure that North Wales is necessarily AWCs highest priority.)

I suspect that when the push comes to release 222s for other applications that 810 introduction gets more pressure on it.

Wheres the sudden pressure coming from to release the 222's?

 

[Mugby]

Historically the trains would have just been accepted with their faults and then attempts would have been made to fix them on service, but that would result in an awful experience for the average user, with constant delays and cancellations. That's what happened under BR!

What examples are there of that happening under BR?

 

[Helvellyn]

Wheres the sudden pressure coming from to release the 222's?

Lumo (aka First Stirling) and supposedly ScotRail.

 

[Kneedown]

How we are led to believe is that we can stop a four car 360 at meridian 5 boards at the Thameslink stations and then the usual 8/10 blue boards same stopping point as eight car 360's at Wellingborough , Kettering and Corby.

Yep, but Wellingborough seems to be an exception to that for some reason. There was a notice up about it a while ago.

 

[800001]

The ROSCO is also not earning income as no trains have been handed over thus no lease payments are being made but they have taken out loans that not only have interest on them but are also amortising from March 24. The liquidated damages mitigated most of this so far but they will be hurting if LDs are upto the contract limit.

The irony here is the 805/807's whilst late are not showing the same issues as the 810's and given Lumo (First) and Grand Central have placed orders recently Hitachi aren't damaged goods in the eyes of other operators.

805/807 are built using shells made in Japan same as the othe 8XX fleets…….maybe that tells us something about the issues occurring with 810s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Wheres the sudden pressure coming from to release the 222's?

The lease running out, with other bidders wanting some.

 

[Trainben]

Can the government force the hand of the leasing companies if key infrastructure is at stake? If EMR have to start shedding 222s without the 810s ready, the service will be unbearable for passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can the government force the hand of the leasing companies if key infrastructure is at stake? If EMR have to start shedding 222s without the 810s ready, the service will be unbearable for passengers.

Not as the law stands, but they did just pass an emergency law regarding British Steel, so if Parliament is motivated enough they can pass a law about whatever they like very quickly.

However, the long term shoddy service on several TOCs would seem to suggest they just aren't bothered enough.

 

[superkev]

805/807 are built using shells made in Japan same as the othe 8XX fleets…….maybe that tells us something about the issues occurring with 810s.

I belive Hitachi (credit to them) invested in a new stir welding facility at Newton Aycliffe.
I suspect getting this working along with the shorter 810 effectively being a new design may be reason for the delays.
perhaps they should have stuck with the standard length.
Hanging all that machinery under a coach is a miracle of engineering before someone chops a couple of metres off.
K

 

[Richard Scott]

What examples are there of that happening under BR?

Lots of locos had modifications after entering traffic, 47 and 50s spring to mind straight away.
HSTs and APTs, latter obviously never got properly sorted.

 

[rmHawk765]

It might work for fixed formation stock such as 700s (although as you note the signs show FLU and RLU, rather than train length), but not for other types. You might drive a 4 car 360 then an 8 car 360 in the same shift. In an ideal world there would be fewer stock types in use, but we are where we are.

Then the lengths for all the permitted formations could just be displayed as well.

 

[43066]

Then the lengths for all the permitted formations could just be displayed as well.

It can be displayed by an aide memoir in the cab. But (based on years of using the system in different traction types) “8 car”, “10 car” etc. is much easier to display, write down on a diagram and remember than an arbitrary length in metres.

 

[800001]

I belive Hitachi (credit to them) invested in a new stir welding facility at Newton Aycliffe.
I suspect getting this working along with the shorter 810 effectively being a new design may be reason for the delays.
perhaps they should have stuck with the standard length.
Hanging all that machinery under a coach is a miracle of engineering before someone chops a couple of metres off.
K

They maybe should of factored the new weld at Aycliffe and staff doing a new procedure into the build schedule.

 

[QSK19]

The irony here is the 805/807's whilst late are not showing the same issues as the 810's and given Lumo (First) and Grand Central have placed orders recently Hitachi aren't damaged goods in the eyes of other operators.

There is the fact that the 810s are shorter; so this suggests that the 26m variant specifically isn’t seen as damaged goods.

I can’t help but think that Hitachi won’t be promoting the 24m variant once the 810 fiasco is finished. However, to be fair, to fit everything into a carriage 2m shorter was always going to be a big ask.

Can the government force the hand of the leasing companies if key infrastructure is at stake? If EMR have to start shedding 222s without the 810s ready, the service will be unbearable for passengers.

As others have said, they could do, but probably won’t be bothered.

Also let’s bear in mind that, according to other users, plans were drawn up to utilise 170s on the mainline service, something which Avanti couldn’t have fallen back onto.

So, if push comes to shove and the 222s do go before the 810s are introduced, let’s not be surprised if these plans get revisited.

 

[bunnahabhain]

There are no plans in the traditional sense as such for 170s to Pancras. It's more of an all options are open thing at the moment. I can't see it happening because of the regional fleet availability.

 

[QSK19]

There are no plans in the traditional sense as such for 170s to Pancras. It's more of an all options are open thing at the moment. I can't see it happening because of the regional fleet availability.

Makes sense, though given that regional services bring in little revenue compared to IC (Liverpool-Norwich aside), wouldn’t it make sense to sacrifice those in favour of keeping the higher revenue stream going?

If regional services must be kept, would there be availability to sub lease some 158s from other TOCs to cover 170s seconded over to IC services?

Failing that, I suppose a reduction in IC services would be inevitable. That or 810s getting pressed into service quickly.

 

[AJDesiro]

If regional services must be kept, would there be availability to sub lease some 158s from other TOCs to cover 170s seconded over to IC services?

TfW should have some going spare soon if they can get their act together with the 197e...

 

[Lewisham2221]

TfW should have some going spare soon if they can get their act together with the 197e...

It's not just the 197s - it's the rest of the fleet that all needs to be brought into service (and behave itself!) as well to eventually allow the 158s to be released.

 

[Killingworth]

The delays into service of the 810s are bound to knock on to delays in redeployment of 222s.

Surely cobbling together a rag bag of unsuitable units scrounged off secondary routes is not the answer. The next thing we'll have proposed is that EMR does a straight swop, 222s for Scotrail's HSTs!

All TOCs are used to delays in availability of new and refurbished stock. The leasing companies are used to extending leases and sub-leasing.

Bringing in temporary cover seems to be adding too many complications all round that should be avoided.

Crack on and get these 810s built, tested and introduced as soon as crews and facilities are ready to service them. Let the legal and financial people fight out who pays.

 

[Amos390]

A google search indicates it is owned by Network Rail, with some kind of long-term contract with GBRf

Do you have any source for Serco being involved?

A bit late, but did some digging, they used to have a contract on the test track, however I was unaware that it ended in 2021.

 

[Supercoss]

For the week ahead Monday to Thursday runs (not Good Fridau - Bank Holiday)
5Q40 Old Dalby- Corby Bedford pan up from Corby
5Q41 Bedford - Kettering pan up
5Q42 Kettering - St Pancras ( pan up to Bedford -pan up from Mil Hill Broadway)
Afternoon Tea 14:18-15:18 platform 3
5Q43 St Pancras - Leicester ( pan up to Mill Hill Broadway, pan up from Bedford -kettering
5Q44 Leicester -Bedford pan up from Kettering

5Q45 Bedford -Corby-Old Dalby pan up to corby

Whilst GBRf crewed expected to have TOC crew handling

 

[800001]

For the week ahead Monday to Thursday runs (not Good Fridau - Bank Holiday)
5Q40 Old Dalby- Corby Bedford pan up from Corby
5Q41 Bedford - Kettering pan up
5Q42 Kettering - St Pancras ( pan up to Bedford -pan up from Mil Hill Broadway)
Afternoon Tea 14:18-15:18 platform 3
5Q43 St Pancras - Leicester ( pan up to Mill Hill Broadway, pan up from Bedford -kettering
5Q44 Leicester -Bedford pan up from Kettering

5Q45 Bedford -Corby-Old Dalby pan up to corby

Whilst GBRf crewed expected to have TOC crew handling

These are indeed EMR Crew going to be training on the units.

 

[tfw756rider]

TfW should have some going spare soon if they can get their act together with the 197e...

The Transport for Wales (TfW) 158s have had their leases extended until sometime in 2027, giving an idea of the latest they'll be available to other operators (such as East Midlands Railway to cover for any 170s covering for 810s, and the heavily rumoured Northern). The 197Es won't enter service on the Cambrian until at least early 2026 (as of April 2025, no normal Cambrian drivers have been trained on them, only some instructors). Information thanks to a TfW employee RailUKforums member.

 

[ChrisC]

The delays into service of the 810s are bound to knock on to delays in redeployment of 222s.

Surely cobbling together a rag bag of unsuitable units scrounged off secondary routes is not the answer. The next thing we'll have proposed is that EMR does a straight swop, 222s for Scotrail's HSTs!

All TOCs are used to delays in availability of new and refurbished stock. The leasing companies are used to extending leases and sub-leasing.

Bringing in temporary cover seems to be adding too many complications all round that should be avoided.

Crack on and get these 810s built, tested and introduced as soon as crews and facilities are ready to service them. Let the legal and financial people fight out who pays.

Completely agree. I think it would be very unsatisfactory and unfair if EMR had to hand over any 222’s before the 810’s are in use. The East Midlands had to wait long enough before they got some of the 170’s because of delays in delivering new trains especially to the West Midlands, resulting in months of short formed regional services. I seem to remember the same happened when Stagecoach took over as EMT. Trains have then been handed over after months of waiting in an appalling condition. Why shouldn’t EMR be able to hang on to their 222’s in the same way.

 

[43096]

Completely agree. I think it would be very unsatisfactory and unfair if EMR had to hand over any 222’s before the 810’s are in use. The East Midlands had to wait long enough before they got some of the 170’s because of delays in delivering new trains especially to the West Midlands, resulting in months of short formed regional services. I seem to remember the same happened when Stagecoach took over as EMT. Trains have then been handed over after months of waiting in an appalling condition. Why shouldn’t EMR be able to hang on to their 222’s in the same way.

But if - as seems likely - the first few 222s released by EMR are destined for an open access operator, why should that operator have to wait because of someone else's (Hitachi's) incompetence?

 

[Trainben]

For the week ahead Monday to Thursday runs (not Good Fridau - Bank Holiday)
5Q40 Old Dalby- Corby Bedford pan up from Corby
5Q41 Bedford - Kettering pan up
5Q42 Kettering - St Pancras ( pan up to Bedford -pan up from Mil Hill Broadway)
Afternoon Tea 14:18-15:18 platform 3
5Q43 St Pancras - Leicester ( pan up to Mill Hill Broadway, pan up from Bedford -kettering
5Q44 Leicester -Bedford pan up from Kettering

5Q45 Bedford -Corby-Old Dalby pan up to corby

Whilst GBRf crewed expected to have TOC crew handling

On the Leicester trips, is there a reason for not panning up on the Wigston- Kettering section? I was under the impression it was clear for use now.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

On the Leicester trips, is there a reason for not panning up on the Wigston- Kettering section? I was under the impression it was clear for use now.

Good point its taken long enough to get authorised for use.

Also why not electric Mill Hill to Bedford - presumably because not passed for 125 yet?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Makes sense, though given that regional services bring in little revenue compared to IC (Liverpool-Norwich aside), wouldn’t it make sense to sacrifice those in favour of keeping the higher revenue stream going?

If regional services must be kept, would there be availability to sub lease some 158s from other TOCs to cover 170s seconded over to IC services?

Failing that, I suppose a reduction in IC services would be inevitable. That or 810s getting pressed into service quickly.

Liverpool to Norwich brings in 15%, the other regional routes 5%, the Intercity and Connect routes are grouped at 80% which is interesting as it would imply Liverpool to Norwich is a very high earner for the company. I don't really think anybody should have to give up their service to satisfy the demands of London. There also isn't any depot space for additional trains, the fleet is already much larger than the previous 15x fleet.

 

[QSK19]

Liverpool to Norwich brings in 15%, the other regional routes 5%, the Intercity and Connect routes are grouped at 80% which is interesting as it would imply Liverpool to Norwich is a very high earner for the company. I don't really think anybody should have to give up their service to satisfy the demands of London. There also isn't any depot space for additional trains, the fleet is already much larger than the previous 15x fleet.

Absolutely agree with you - no regional users should have to suffer as a result of such a situation. What’s more, even though they account for little revenue, the regional transport links are vital for those who are away from the MML.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am absolutely against regional stock being poached for IC services. I raised it as an “all options open” sort of hypothesis.

 

[Aspen90]

810008 leaves for Old Dalby today, ready for driver training this week - 5Q30. Will be nice to see a full livery and seats up and down the MML over the next few days.