Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bletchleyite]

Does the 810 have a buffet? If not that may help explain why it gets in the same number of people.

Voyager and Meridian buffets are tiny, basically just taking up the space where an accessible bog could be, or barely 8 seats.

 

[Domh245]

Voyager and Meridian buffets are tiny, basically just taking up the space where an accessible bog could be, or barely 8 seats.

Be that as it may, I doubt that the 810s will have them - I don't think they get(/got) much use on the Meridians apart from at weekends

 

[Energy]

Voyager and Meridian buffets are tiny, basically just taking up the space where an accessible bog could be, or barely 8 seats.

Azuma ones are quite big though.

 

[Chiltern006]

small one would do like the ones on 745/0s

 

[WesternLancer]

Voyager and Meridian buffets are tiny, basically just taking up the space where an accessible bog could be, or barely 8 seats.

Or a spot where you can actually prepare drinks made with boiling water or hot food from a microwave and sell them for money, instead of tepid tea and coffee etc from a trolley and cold food only.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good question does it really need one for a 2 hour journey? also will they have the smaller kitchen as used on the Hull Trains/TPE sets?

"The first class driving vehicles will include a 3 m galley area, similar to those fitted to the TransPennine Express and Hull Trains Class 802 sets."

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or a spot where you can actually prepare drinks made with boiling water or hot food from a microwave and sell them for money, instead of tepid tea and coffee etc from a trolley and cold food only.

To be fair the 80x will have a galley, so you don't have to do a trolley, you could go through on foot taking orders then bring back freshly prepared food.

 

[37424]

Given the shorter length even with the slightly smaller kitchen I cannot see there being room for a Buffet on the seating capacity they are suggesting unless you have some very cramped seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the shorter length even with the smaller kitchen I cannot see there being room for a Buffet on the seating capacity they are suggesting unless you have some very cramped seating.

I might be wrong but I don't recall hearing that there will be one, so I suspect there won't.

 

[37424]

I might be wrong but I don't recall hearing that there will be one, so I suspect there won't.

I think its unlikely 2 Buffets on a 10 car formation for journeys around 2 hours, especially when you compare it with GWR which have more longer journeys and no Buffet. I'm surprised they even managed to Buffets on the 5 car units on the East Coast.

Although one might ask the question as to why we have to have a kitchen plonked at the end of 1st class rather than a combined Kitchen Buffet between First and Second Class

 

[hwl]

50% less traction motors though - only two coaches with powered bogies now.

What is the source for only just the two motored coaches?

 

[WesternLancer]

I think its unlikely 2 Buffets on a 10 car formation for journeys around 2 hours, especially when you compare it with GWR which have more longer journeys and no Buffet. I'm surprised they even managed to Buffets on the 5 car units on the East Coast.

Although one might ask the question as to why we have to have a kitchen plonked at the end of 1st class rather than a combined Kitchen Buffet between First and Second Class

I think this issue is as you can not meet H&S space requirements in a kitchen now, AND meet DDA space needs to pass the kitchen area in a corridor which would be what you would need between 1st and Std class seating (in prev or up thread post) so it means that you end up with the kitchen at one end if you wan tto do any sort of food - and the 1st class high priced peak fares are now justified (it is argued) by the 'free' food offer on many IC TOC trains.

To be fair the 80x will have a galley, so you don't have to do a trolley, you could go through on foot taking orders then bring back freshly prepared food.

Thx - fair point!

 

[fgwrich]

To be fair the 80x will have a galley, so you don't have to do a trolley, you could go through on foot taking orders then bring back freshly prepared food.

Hmmm, I'm getting a strong sense of Déjà vu from the West here...

EMR Customers, enjoy the Buffet while you have the chance, although with the present situation it's unlikely you while.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the source for only just the two motored coaches?

Railway Gazette, the quoted part of the article is in post #752.

 

[Domh245]

What is the source for only just the two motored coaches?

The railway gazette article quotes two motored coaches (relevant bit quoted in this post) although it's something that's been bandied around for a while, this post quotes Jan 2020 Modern Railways with a 2 motored configuration.

Does seem surprising to install more diesel power and then reduce the number of motored axles - if they use the exact same motors as the other 80x, it gives them an installed 1808kW (continuous) for 2940kW of engine, which unless the motors have a far higher peak rating, would mean most of that extra power is pointless (and no chance of matching 22x timing). I suppose it might be possible that they've realised that can up the power in each motor as part of a weight saving drive (which starts adding up if they can put inboard frame bogies under more vehicles) but I'd worry about the ability to put the power down

 

[WesternLancer]

Hmmm, I'm getting a strong sense of Déjà vu from the West here...

EMR Customers, enjoy the Buffet while you have the chance, although with the present situation it's unlikely you while.

I suspect you are right.

In many ways there has not been a 'buffet' for some time really (and I mean pre covid), at least since the EMR takeover from EMT IIRC - I recall being on an HST in summer 2019 I think in standard (knowing in 1st staff were serving hot food on the 1st class paid for menu) . The trolley came down and I asked if they provided anything hot at all in standard (I was after a hot bacon roll type thing, and it was mroning peak train and I was pretty sure EMT had done those, and was told 'no, sorry' and when I asked further - or asked the Tran Manager why this was (I can't recall who I spoke to) I was taken aback to discover the 1st class hosts and service / food they provided was all EMR in house, but the Std class trolley service was contracted out to an external provider and this meant they had no flexibility. It was almost as if they did not even share any common menu items etc

Not sure how much of this was 100% accurate or if I was being fobbed off a bit (I don't think I was the staff member was trying to help me understand the situation) - but it didn't seem very sensible (given I was trying to pay them for a product...).

The actual counters in both the HST and 222 buffets are usually closed with shutters down (pre covid I mean) unless for some reason the trolley person could not get along the train - too crowded maybe - and then they might open the shutter and serve from there on occasion.

It strikes me as coming to something that you have to pay a fairy hefty 1st class fare before you are allowed to buy a microwaved bacon roll....(never mind that you have paid a hefty peak time std class fare anyway)

 

[37424]

I think this issue is as you can not meet H&S space requirements in a kitchen now, AND meet DDA space needs to pass the kitchen area in a corridor which would be what you would need between 1st and Std class seating (in prev or up thread post) so it means that you end up with the kitchen at one end if you wan tto do any sort of food - and the 1st class high priced peak fares are now justified (it is argued) by the 'free' food offer on many IC TOC trains.


Thx - fair point!

I'm not sure why you would need a DDA compliant corridor providing its not stopping wheelchair access to the Toilet after all look at the width between the 3+2 seating on a 720 maybe there is an issue with a narrower kitchen that a corridor would cause.

It is true to say a lack of Buffet doesn't bother me drink and snack is as much as I ever buy on the train anyway.

 

[43055]

I suspect you are right.

In many ways there has not been a 'buffet' for some time really (and I mean pre covid), at least since the EMR takeover from EMT IIRC - I recall being on an HST in summer 2019 I think in standard (knowing in 1st staff were serving hot food on the 1st class paid for menu) . The trolley came down and I asked if they provided anything hot at all in standard (I was after a hot bacon roll type thing, and it was mroning peak train and I was pretty sure EMT had done those, and was told 'no, sorry' and when I asked further - or asked the Tran Manager why this was (I can't recall who I spoke to) I was taken aback to discover the 1st class hosts and service / food they provided was all EMR in house, but the Std class trolley service was contracted out to an external provider and this meant they had no flexibility. It was almost as if they did not even share any common menu items etc

That is true but somewhere they must meet as the weekend first class drink and biscuit is from the buffet/trolley.

One think that I do hope EMR continue with is the breakfast trains.

 

[DDB]

Although one might ask the question as to why we have to have a kitchen plonked at the end of 1st class rather than a combined Kitchen Buffet between First and Second Class

Also aren't there rules against putting passengers in the very front of trains that travel a certain speed?
That's why the otherwise unusable space at the very ends if trains is utilised for things like kitchens, train manager's office, bike racks, storage for stuff including potentially the trolley/stock for the trolley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also aren't there rules against putting passengers in the very front of trains that travel a certain speed?
That's why the otherwise unusable space at the very ends if trains is utilised for things like kitchens, train manager's office, bike racks, storage for stuff including potentially the trolley/stock for the trolley.

I believe so, over 110mph. However the space required isn't that long, if you look at the non-kitchen end of an 80x it's basically just the space between the frontmost door and the nose (about 1/4 of the vehicle or thereabouts).

 

[swt_passenger]

Also aren't there rules against putting passengers in the very front of trains that travel a certain speed?
That's why the otherwise unusable space at the very ends if trains is utilised for things like kitchens, train manager's office, bike racks, storage for stuff including potentially the trolley/stock for the trolley.

Not any longer. Voyagers were the pinnacle of that “blanket ban” period, but it’s been relaxed since, with various high speed classes having seating almost right to the end.

 

[Nymanic]

Not any longer. Voyagers were the pinnacle of that “blanket ban” period, but it’s been relaxed since, with various high speed classes having seating almost right to the end.

Such as the Class 397's standard class end. Unless the rules consider bikes, pushchairs, standees and tip-up seat users to be more expendable than everyone else.

 

[PG]

Such as the Class 397's standard class end. Unless the rules consider bikes, pushchairs, standees and tip-up seat users to be more expendable than everyone else.

Maybe keep that area for ticketless travel...

 

[fgwrich]

Not any longer. Voyagers were the pinnacle of that “blanket ban” period, but it’s been relaxed since, with various high speed classes having seating almost right to the end.

I think the 395s were the first? Followed by the IET incarnations.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the 395s were the first? Followed by the IET incarnations.

I think the 395s were the most different to previous. We’ve had a few posts since then about IETs needing a passenger free zone, that have usually forgotten about the other end of the train...

 

[43096]

I think the 395s were the first? Followed by the IET incarnations.

Class 180 was before the 395s.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm not sure why you would need a DDA compliant corridor providing its not stopping wheelchair access to the Toilet after all look at the width between the 3+2 seating on a 720 maybe there is an issue with a narrower kitchen that a corridor would cause.

It is true to say a lack of Buffet doesn't bother me drink and snack is as much as I ever buy on the train anyway.

Dunno - could be reasons of escape that a wheelchair can pass by the kitchen area or some such - I can't recall but the thread concerned explained it all.

 

[hwl]

The railway gazette article quotes two motored coaches (relevant bit quoted in this post) although it's something that's been bandied around for a while, this post quotes Jan 2020 Modern Railways with a 2 motored configuration.

Does seem surprising to install more diesel power and then reduce the number of motored axles - if they use the exact same motors as the other 80x, it gives them an installed 1808kW (continuous) for 2940kW of engine, which unless the motors have a far higher peak rating, would mean most of that extra power is pointless (and no chance of matching 22x timing). I suppose it might be possible that they've realised that can up the power in each motor as part of a weight saving drive (which starts adding up if they can put inboard frame bogies under more vehicles) but I'd worry about the ability to put the power down

It doesn't stack up unless they make major changes. They would need 325kW / motor given weight and length reductions vs 26m but inside frame bogies on 3 cars might also help reduce weight and hence power requirements a bit further.
They have a 300kW motor design available off the shelf but then a huge power gap up to high floored / large wheel diameter locomotive traction motors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dunno - could be reasons of escape that a wheelchair can pass by the kitchen area or some such - I can't recall but the thread concerned explained it all.

It sounded to me like one of those myths, like "you can't have decent sized luggage racks", "you can't have big windows", "you can't have end gangways", "you can't have decent seats in an IET" etc etc etc. Just about every single one of these things has been proven a myth.

The corridor next to a kitchen would be no smaller than that through the "engine room" of a FLIRT.

 

[fgwrich]

Class 180 was before the 395s.

But you can't sit directly behind the cab with those You've still got the luggage / van space behind the cab and the first row of seats. Admittedly the 395s do have passenger useable door immediately behind the cab.