Class 810 (was originally class 804) for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

43096

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The March issue of Modern Railways also has an article on the 810s, which mentions two new facts not mentioned in previous articles. Firstly that the two space saver toilets in the centre TS will be located at either end of the coach instead of opposite each other as on the 80Xs. The second is that the TFT PIS screens won't just be on the bulkhead ends of the passenger compartment but also in the vestibules.

In addition to this article is a side article regarding the seating on the 810s by Ian Walmsley. It mentions that seat pitch will be 800mm, which is am amount Ian Walmsley approves of, but to allow this it does mean there are only 6 bays of 4 seats, down from 8 bays which were originally planned and as found on the other 80Xs. As mentioned the seats will be FISA Leans, but apparently will have a more reclined position than their GA counterparts, of 107 degrees to horizontal for the EMR seats vs 102 degrees as found on the GA seats. All sounding positive, but the true comfort test will be sitting on these in reality.
Agreed on the seats. Having now read Ian Walmsley's piece, even he seems cautiously optimistic about the seats in them. Getting confirmation that they are FISA Leans is a good starting point. Certainly going to be interesting to try them out.
 
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hexagon789

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Agreed on the seats. Having now read Ian Walmsley's piece, even he seems cautiously optimistic about the seats in them. Getting confirmation that they are FISA Leans is a good starting point. Certainly going to be interesting to try them out.
If they are even slightly better than the rest of them, that'll be something!
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Agreed on the seats. Having now read Ian Walmsley's piece, even he seems cautiously optimistic about the seats in them. Getting confirmation that they are FISA Leans is a good starting point. Certainly going to be interesting to try them out.
They look worryingly similar to the very uncomfortable and hard seats that Greater Anglia Flirts have, which are extremely thin in first class I might add, which will underwhelm me greatly.
 

Chiltern006

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GA ones are very comfy, possibly the comfiest seat on the market . least it isn't sophias
 

hexagon789

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They look worryingly similar to the very uncomfortable and hard seats that Greater Anglia Flirts have, which are extremely thin in first class I might add, which will underwhelm me greatly.
I guess we will see, they can't be worse than an ironing board surely?

GA ones are very comfy, possibly the comfiest seat on the market . least it isn't sophias
Very true.
 

Bletchleyite

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They look worryingly similar to the very uncomfortable and hard seats that Greater Anglia Flirts have, which are extremely thin in first class I might add, which will underwhelm me greatly.

They are - FISA LEAN. I'm surprised you don't like them, though, they tend to be quite popular, and were indeed the seat chosen for the Northern 195s by the passenger consultation before Northern decided to cheap out, stuff the sham consultation and fit ironing boards anyway as they always intended to.

I find them very similar to the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat which very rarely draws complaints.
 

hexagon789

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They are - FISA LEAN. I'm surprised you don't like them, though, they tend to be quite popular, and were indeed the seat chosen for the Northern 195s by the passenger consultation before Northern decided to cheap out, stuff the sham consultation and fit ironing boards anyway as they always intended to.

I find them very similar to the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat which very rarely draws complaints.
Of course potentially EMR could always do a Northern!

Assuming they don't, I think they'll draw far fewer complaints than the seating of other Hitachi units.
 

Energy

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Of course potentially EMR could always do a Northern!

Assuming they don't, I think they'll draw far fewer complaints than the seating of other Hitachi units.
I doubt it will change, Abellio have used that seat across its franchises post GA.
 

hexagon789

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I doubt it will change, Abellio have used that seat across its franchises post GA.
Probably, I was being facetious. Assuming they do then it will be much better than the usual which is cause for some praise I think.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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They are - FISA LEAN. I'm surprised you don't like them, though, they tend to be quite popular, and were indeed the seat chosen for the Northern 195s by the passenger consultation before Northern decided to cheap out, stuff the sham consultation and fit ironing boards anyway as they always intended to.

I find them very similar to the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat which very rarely draws complaints.
I think the seat is nice in Standard but honestly first class on a 745 is the biggest sham I’ve ever known, with exactly the same seats, if stretched a minimal amount wider, in a 2x1 layout. They’re thinner than even the Sophia first class seats and don’t recline. Now I know EMR have “modified” the seat slightly but the cynic in me thinks it will be an absolutely marginal alteration and the seat will be a bitter disappointment.

FISAs are nicer than Sophias in standard I can agree on that.
 

py_megapixel

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I think the seat is nice in Standard but honestly first class on a 745 is the biggest sham I’ve ever known, with exactly the same seats, if stretched a minimal amount wider, in a 2x1 layout. They’re thinner than even the Sophia first class seats and don’t recline. Now I know EMR have “modified” the seat slightly but the cynic in me thinks it will be an absolutely marginal alteration and the seat will be a bitter disappointment.
Is it really that bad, though, when you consider that First on a 745 is still on-par or even better than, say, First on an IET?
Whether it's better than Standard or not I think is less relevant than whether it's comparable to other First offerings on the market.
 

Pacerman99

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According to modern railways, the doors of the class 810 will open into vehicle ends rather than into the saloon as per the AT300 26m design, so no seat will be windowless, which is great news! I guess a 26m bodyshell has to be slightly narrower at the ends so the doors have to open into the saloon.
 

hexagon789

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According to modern railways, the doors of the class 810 will open into vehicle ends rather than into the saloon as per the AT300 26m design, so no seat will be windowless, which is great news! I guess a 26m bodyshell has to be slightly narrower at the ends so the doors have to open into the saloon.
I'd read that there would still be seats without a view because of the door pockets, so it will be interesting to see what the case proves to be
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it really that bad, though, when you consider that First on a 745 is still on-par or even better than, say, First on an IET?
Whether it's better than Standard or not I think is less relevant than whether it's comparable to other First offerings on the market.

If you consider the short journey times on Greater Anglia, you're comparing it with those seats in 2+2 on something like SWR, surely? To be fair, the WCML Brum services have nicer First, but I suspect that's more because there's no point having a subfleet for the Birmingham trains when you can have the same Pendolinos for everything - same reason why HS2 isn't having any captive trains on day one.

According to modern railways, the doors of the class 810 will open into vehicle ends rather than into the saloon as per the AT300 26m design, so no seat will be windowless, which is great news! I guess a 26m bodyshell has to be slightly narrower at the ends so the doors have to open into the saloon.

I'd read that there would still be seats without a view because of the door pockets, so it will be interesting to see what the case proves to be

The door pockets will be at the vehicle end, not the seated area - look at how Voyager doors open on some vehicles. Why Hitachi seem so resistant to plug doors I have no idea, though.
 

py_megapixel

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If you consider the short journey times on Greater Anglia, you're comparing it with those seats in 2+2 on something like SWR, surely?
Well, we are talking about something which I believe was classed as an InterCity service under BR, and used to be operated by a rake of Mk3s, so I think an IET is a fair comparison.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, we are talking about something which I believe was classed as an InterCity service under BR, and used to be operated by a rake of Mk3s, so I think an IET is a fair comparison.

Fair point. I'd certainly say a FISA LEAN, even a Standard Class one, is more comfortable than the rubbishy Fainsa First Class ones found on IETs. I once sat down in 1st on an IET intending to do Weekend First, and shortly afterwards moved to Standard because it definitely wasn't worth the money.
 

hexagon789

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The door pockets will be at the vehicle end, not the seated area - look at how Voyager doors open on some vehicles. Why Hitachi seem so resistant to plug doors I have no idea, though.
Interesting, EMR themselves suggested otherwise but not the first time the TOC themselves don't know everything!

The plug-door thing is bizarre, pretty sure there are Japanese high-speed trains with such.
 

Energy

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Why Hitachi seem so resistant to plug doors I have no idea, though.
Not really sure why, the few sliding door trains are usually for door opening speed. Plug doors would make more sense on the AT300s as they seal better, Hitachi got around the air getting in problem by fitting inflatable seals (I think).
 

py_megapixel

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Not really sure why, the few sliding door trains are usually for door opening speed. Plug doors would make more sense on the AT300s as they seal better, Hitachi got around the air getting in problem by fitting inflatable seals (I think).
I don't think they inflate - what happens is a metal arm thing shoves the door up against the frame to prevent air coming in through the gap, as you can see in this video:

The 220s and 221s on the other hand do have inflatable seals.
 

Energy

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I don't think they inflate - what happens is a metal arm thing shoves the door up against the frame to prevent air coming in through the gap, as you can see in this video:

The 220s and 221s on the other hand do have inflatable seals.
Ahh, wouldn't it be simpler to use a plug door and just increase the force it has pushing inwards? Thats what everyone else does...
 

Mikey C

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Those Hitachi doors are slow to open, due to that seal

Maybe not a problem on Inter City type routes, but not helpful on the 395s when they are chugging through Kent on the Classic Lines, especially being relatively narrow as well
 

py_megapixel

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Those Hitachi doors are slow to open, due to that seal

Maybe not a problem on Inter City type routes, but not helpful on the 395s when they are chugging through Kent on the Classic Lines, especially being relatively narrow as well
The IETs fix this problem by sealing and unsealing the doors when the train slows down below a specific speed threshold rather than when the doors are released.
 

fgwrich

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The IETs fix this problem by sealing and unsealing the doors when the train slows down below a specific speed threshold rather than when the doors are released.
5 MPH and under. Unfortunately if your stood next to the door and crawling between signals on the approach to some station stops (Reading and Maidenhead) that means you have the pleasure of the seal popping and banging as it releases, pops, releases, pops and releases again. They also rattle a bit when another train passes (almost but not as bad as the BR MK3 based stuff). But, if the doors are to move into the end pockets that is something.

Frustratingly, the reason given by Hitachi in the past why they don't use European Plug Doors compared to their own design are that they consider them to be "Unreliable". Living in Desiro land, I've never seen any issues with those doors on our 444 fleets! Occasionally, I'll admit, I've come across slow / sticky doors on the 450s, but the Hitachi design isn't infallible either, with rubbish easily catching in their doors.

Going back to the seating discussion for a moment, I've yet to try any of the new GA Stuff. But, hopefully, the GA & EMR standard class versions are better than the hard and cold standard class versions in the First Class section of the 444s. Perhaps it's just the leather and the padding I don't know, but they don't seem to be going down well over here.
 

Energy

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Frustratingly, the reason given by Hitachi in the past why they don't use European Plug Doors compared to their own design are that they consider them to be "Unreliable". Living in Desiro land, I've never seen any issues with those doors on our 444 fleets! Occasionally, I'll admit, I've come across slow / sticky doors on the 450s, but the Hitachi design isn't infallible either, with rubbish easily catching in their doors.
Door problems don't seem to be a problem here, the Hitachis seem more likely to fail to me, with the extra moving part of the thing to stop them shaking.
 

fgwrich

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Door problems don't seem to be a problem here, the Hitachis seem more likely to fail to me, with the extra moving part of the thing to stop them shaking.

I've seen a few have issues with rubbish catching in the runners - the problems seem to be on the vehicles with the high floors, as it drops down into the gaps when the doors are closed - it could be designed out perhaps even using something as simple as a brush type thing. I've also had one or two make some considerably loud BANGs when the seals form.
 

PacificRail

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The plug-door thing is bizarre, pretty sure there are Japanese high-speed trains with such.

Sorry to stray off-topic a bit, but as mentioned, pocket sliding doors are used across most of the rail manufacturers in Japan, and probably why Hitachi is sticking to something it's more familiar with door-wise for their products. Very few rollingstock in Japan are ever built with plug sliding doors. Most of the shinkansen models are built with pocket doors, compared to European units which prefer outward sliding plug doors in some cases. One model series, the E3 built by Kawasaki and Tokyu (now J-Trec), are fitted with plug doors that are flush to the body, though they still act like pockets doors as they slide inward.

I feel that in the UK and Europe, manufacturers might prefer outward sliding plug doors to pocket doors when it comes to situations about using wall space since it can change the available space within a train. But since Hitachi is using them, it doesn't seem like an issue on that front. Issues with windows and seat alignments are one thing, but that seems to plague other builds regardless of door type and manufacturers.
 
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AM9

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Sorry to stray off-topic a bit, but as mentioned, pocket sliding doors are used across most of the rail manufacturers in Japan, and probably why Hitachi is sticking to something it's more familiar with door-wise for their products. Very few rollingstock in Japan are ever built with plug sliding doors. Most of the shinkansen models are built with pocket doors, compared to European units which prefer outward sliding plug doors in some cases. One model series, the E3 built by Kawasaki and Tokyu (now J-Trec), are fitted with plug doors that are flush to the body, though they still act like pockets doors as they slide inward.

I feel that in the UK and Europe, manufacturers might prefer outward sliding plug doors to pocket doors when it comes to situations about using wall space since it can change the available space within a train. But since Hitachi is using them, it doesn't seem like an issue on that front. Issues with windows and seat alignments are one thing, but that seems to plague other builds regardless of door type and manufacturers.
There is also an operational issue when plug doors fail to close. The train will usually be out of gauge, either calling for mechanic intervention on running lines, or clearance to run in that state to an off-route stowage, (I'm sure there's a 'railway term' for that type of movement).
The out of gauge issue is much more important on a system with limited clearances like the UK's.
 

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