CLC and Chat Moss. What would you do?

[northwichcat]

The Manchester Hub document makes suggestion for the Liverpool-Manchester lines.

In short the main recommendations are:
* Two express and two stoppers on both lines between Manchester and Liverpool.
* Liverpool to Scarborough to go via Victoria. Liverpool to Man Airport to go via Warrington Ctl.
* An extra express on Chat Moss between Manchester and Chester, including more frequent Airport links.
* New stations at White City and Cornbrook on CLC.

It doesn't, however, say which stations should be served by expresses and which by stoppers only.

Also the option for extending a South Manchester group service e.g. a Crewe service to White City is possible due to the OHE to White City.

Now I know most people are going to say electrify CLC and Victoria-Stalybridge. Other than that what would you do with the two lines?

 

[First class]

Stopping Pattern:

Chat Moss (Northern Cl.319) Every 60 minutes
Lime St
Huyton
Newton-le-Willows
Manchester Oxford Rd
Manchester Pic
Manchester Airport

The line should also be suplemented with the TPE Yorkshire service every 60 minutes
Lime St
Wavertree Tech Park (peak only)
Huyton
Newton-le-Willows
Manchester Victoria
and towards Leeds.


Send the EMT via Warrington, but calling:

Lime St-Liverpool S Pkway-Warrington-Manchester Oxford Rd

 

[northwichcat]

Wavertree Tech Park is interesting in your proposed calling patterns. It's currently in the Northern semi-fast stopping pattern but you're proposing dropping it and putting peak time only calls in the TPE service.

If Chester gets an additional Airport service via Newton-le-Willows, would there still be paths to send a Liverpool express to the Airport via Newton-le-Willows? I imagine that could be one reason for the recommendation of the CLC line getting an Airport service instead of Chat Moss.

 

[Invincibles]

Chat Moss expresses would be

Liverpool - Earlestown* - Newton* - Victoria (these would be replaced by salford central if i could)
Liverpool - Wavertree - St Helens - Newton - Victoria (Again with Salford Central if I could)

CLC would be:

Liverpool - South Parkway - Warrington Central - Ox Road - Picc - Airport
Liverpool - Widnes - Warrington Central - Ox Road - Picc - Stockport

If the market is there to add south parkway to the Liverpool-Norwich ok, but I would sooner not.

 

[northwichcat]

If the market is there to add south parkway to the Liverpool-Norwich ok, but I would sooner not.

I think that's one of the difficulties for Liverpool-Norwich. A market for Stockport to South Parkway exists but I don't think one exists for Nottingham to South Parkway.

Maybe the solution is one unit does:
Lime Street, Manchester Picc, Nottingham...Norwich
then another unit leaving Lime St a few minutes later does Lime Street to Nottingham doing all stops that Liverpool-Norwich currently does. In return direction it'd be scheduled so the service from Norwich leaves Manchester Piccadilly a few minutes ahead of the service from Nottingham.

 

[Invincibles]

It would be nice, and offer extra capacity on the midlands to manchester route (possibly even allowing one train not to serve Sheffield?)

That is a bit off topic though, and I guess the South Parkway stop needs to be had in both trains.

I like the idea of one serving Widnes though and just realised the airport one really should serve Birchwood to basically take the path currently run by TPE.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be nice, and offer extra capacity on the midlands to manchester route (possibly even allowing one train not to serve Sheffield?)

Yeah Sheffield will still have the same half-hourly Manchester express and Nottingham service it has now. I would imagine by not going via Sheffield and only doing one intermediate call west of Nottingham that it would cut quite a lot off the journey time for Liverpool-Nottingham, which is probably what people doing journeys like Manchester to Peterborough are crying out for.

 

[cslusarc]

@Firstclass, its too bad that the TPE North (to West Yorkshire) isn't electrified because there are no plans as of yet to electrify the approximate 43 miles stretch between Manchester Victoria and Leeds via Huddersfield.

As for stopping patterns, Huyton, , Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows are the only three stations with high passenger numbers.

Also (somewhat related), could the existing Crewe-Derby service be extended beyond Crewe to Manchester Airport to add a service between the West Coast Main Line and Manchester Airport.

 

[185]

My 2 Cents:

-Merseyrail 3rd rail extended from Hunts Cross 26 miles into Manchester.
-CLC via Warrington to be exclusively Merseyrail sets, exery 15 mins.
-All TPE, EMT and rest to run via Newton.
-Line speeds upped on Liverpool-Newton-Manchester.
-4-track passing sections at Wavertree, St Helens Jn and at Eccles Stations.
-New park & ride station at Culcheth.
-3rd rail CLC to run from a remodelled Cornbrook via the disused iron viaduct into city.
-New 4-platform Manchester CLC terminus station adjacent to Deansgate tram stop on open car park behind Manchester Central Conference Centre. Link to tram station and existing rail station. Road frontage / entrance hall building for station on Deansgate in place of kitchen showroom (formerly Harley Davidson showroom).
-Hull to Manchester TPE extended to Warrington BQ and Chester, hourly.

The men in white coats from the DfT are here now to take me away. That is all.

 

[tony_mac]

As for stopping patterns, Huyton, , Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows are the only three stations with high passenger numbers.

What figures are you using?
The ORRs Station usage figures has Huyton, Broadgreen and Newton-le-Willows as the busiest stations.

Incidentally, the current stopping pattern of Wavertree and St Helens Junction are actually two of the least used stations - Broad Green and Lea Green (each 3 minutes away) have almost double the passenger numbers.

Perhaps if Broad Green was renamed to 'Liverpool East Parkway' then it would get some more services!

 

[cslusarc]

you're right, I guess I didn't check the stats for Broadgreen. My source is wikipedia (from ORR Station usage) but since it is contribution based its accuracy is questionable but gives us a general idea of the big picture. So let me revise my selection to: Huyton, Broadgreen and Newton-le-Willows

 

[northwichcat]

Remember Huyton is served by Wigan-Liverpool services and Newton-le-Willows and Earlestown are served by Manchester-Llandudno services, in addition to Liverpool-Manchester services. Stations like Rainhill and St Helens Junction will only be served by Liverpool-Manchester services (when the Bank Quay service is diverted/extended to Victoria.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also (somewhat related), could the existing Crewe-Derby service be extended beyond Crewe to Manchester Airport to add a service between the West Coast Main Line and Manchester Airport.

That is the latest proposal (in the WCML RUS) that overrides the Manchester Hub proposal of the Manchester-Crewe via Airport service being extended to Stoke.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

-Merseyrail 3rd rail extended from Hunts Cross 26 miles into Manchester.

-3rd rail CLC to run from a remodelled Cornbrook via the disused iron viaduct into city.

Nothing like this to "warm up" a debate......

 

[northwichcat]

My 2 Cents:

-Merseyrail 3rd rail extended from Hunts Cross 26 miles into Manchester.
-CLC via Warrington to be exclusively Merseyrail sets, exery 15 mins.

That isn't really an attractive option for people in Warrington. One of the most common complaints from people in Chester and Southport about Merseyrail is they don't have any express trains to Liverpool and have to take a frustrating all stops service.

You'd also remove all long distance services from Warrington Central. I imagine they'd have mixed feelings about the current proposal to replace the Scarborough service with a Manchester Airport service.

CLC can't be exclusively Merseyrail, unlike the current network, due to freight services using Trafford Park.

Also what services would serve West Allerton and Mossley Hill? Would you propose slowing down the Liverpool-Birmingham service to accommodate this?

-New 4-platform Manchester CLC terminus station adjacent to Deansgate tram stop

A lot of CLC passengers change on to other services at Oxford Road so I think that idea is a non-starter.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With the diverted TPE services (2tph between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows), Manchester-Liverpool stoppers (2tph), Northern's airport-Liverpool (1tph), Manchester-Chester and beyond (we'll assume it's 2tph), Manchester/Liverpool-Wigan (each 2tph or so I hear), the recent Blackpool trains (1tph) and Alliance wanting a service each hour (GNWR 1 bi-hourly, GNER 1 bi-hourly), that'll be 8tph between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows (assuming there is capacity at Ordsall lane) and between Huyton and Liverpool. For a twin track line, that would be very close to capacity (before you consider freight movements).

That said, I wouldn't swap the MIA-LIV sevice to the CLC, I don't think that really serves any purpose.

 

[tom1649]

Also (somewhat related), could the existing Crewe-Derby service be extended beyond Crewe to Manchester Airport to add a service between the West Coast Main Line and Manchester Airport.

This service used to run to Manchester Airport, but was often full to bursting point because it was (and still is) usually worked by a single Class 153 unit. When you added large amounts of luggage into the equation matters became even worse. The service would have to be strengthened by stock that EMT currently do not have before it was extended back to the airport.

On one occasion I travelled on this line in Central Trains days when it still ran to the Airport and the train was so full by Stoke that no one else could board the train.

 

[185]

That isn't really an attractive option for people in Warrington. One of the most common complaints from people in Chester and Southport about Merseyrail is they don't have any express trains to Liverpool and have to take a frustrating all stops service.

You'd also remove all long distance services from Warrington Central. I imagine they'd have mixed feelings about the current proposal to replace the Scarborough service with a Manchester Airport service.

CLC can't be exclusively Merseyrail, unlike the current network, due to freight services using Trafford Park.

Also what services would serve West Allerton and Mossley Hill? Would you propose slowing down the Liverpool-Birmingham service to accommodate this?

A lot of CLC passengers change on to other services at Oxford Road so I think that idea is a non-starter.

- Some services could be limited stop.
- Warrington would have faster TPE Hull services from Bank Quay.
- With a remodelled Cornbrook, passenger trains would be on the far side passing Old Trafford, with freight on the nearside. The 3rd rail lines would then cut over both the freight and the Metrolink lines, to be on the other side well before the viaduct.
- Mossley Hill and West Allerton would be served by a new Halton Curve service, or possibly half of the Birminghams.
- Most changes at Oxford Rd from the CLC seem to be to Piccadilly or the Airport, Deansgate could be improved and become an all-call major station.
- All CLC stuff used to terminate at Manchester Central some years ago.

Omg. There's worms in this can I've opened!

 

[northwichcat]

That said, I wouldn't swap the MIA-LIV sevice to the CLC, I don't think that really serves any purpose.

Apart from giving the largest town in Cheshire a direct service to Manchester Airport. Warrington is similar in size to Huddersfield and Bolton, which both have direct Airport services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

- Most changes at Oxford Rd from the CLC seem to be to Piccadilly or the Airport, Deansgate could be improved and become an all-call major station.

I'd add Stockport to that list. It's not uncommon for people from the CLC stopper to alight at Oxford Road and board the TPE service to Piccadilly and then the Mid Cheshire service. Of course travelling half an hour earlier/later makes that one change but not all CLC services call at all stations.

 

[tbtc]

This service used to run to Manchester Airport, but was often full to bursting point because it was (and still is) usually worked by a single Class 153 unit. When you added large amounts of luggage into the equation matters became even worse. The service would have to be strengthened by stock that EMT currently do not have before it was extended back to the airport.

On one occasion I travelled on this line in Central Trains days when it still ran to the Airport and the train was so full by Stoke that no one else could board the train.

Yeah, given that EMT struggle to offer anything bigger than a 153 on the Derby - Crewe service, I don't think they have spare capacity to extend this hourly service to Manchester Airport.

Any spare 153s should really be used on the existing section from Derby to Crewe, whilst the electrified line from Crewe to Manchester Airport could be an EMU service (e.g. if you want to give a Stoke link to the Airport, then why not extend the LM London - Crewe stopper?).

Other than that, as I've said on other threads, the desire to give every single place a direct link to Manchester Airport ends up complicating many lines around Greater Manchester. Yes, we all want our town to have an Airport link, but it means swapping around Manchester termini...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not uncommon for people from the CLC stopper to alight at Oxford Road and board the TPE service to Piccadilly and then the Mid Cheshire service

Are you saying that people from the Warrington line are coming into Manchester to go out on the Knutsford line?

Thats going to be quite a slow journey (especialyl compared to the way the crow would fly...), and involving a couple of changes.

 

[northwichcat]

Yeah, given that EMT struggle to offer anything bigger than a 153 on the Derby - Crewe service, I don't think they have spare capacity to extend this hourly service to Manchester Airport.

Any spare 153s should really be used on the existing section from Derby to Crewe, whilst the electrified line from Crewe to Manchester Airport could be an EMU service (e.g. if you want to give a Stoke link to the Airport, then why not extend the LM London - Crewe stopper?).

Other than that, as I've said on other threads, the desire to give every single place a direct link to Manchester Airport ends up complicating many lines around Greater Manchester. Yes, we all want our town to have an Airport link, but it means swapping around Manchester termini...

The relevant RUS' suggest 2 car DMUs on Derby-Crewe and for it to be extended to the Airport. However, doing this doesn't give Derby a direct Manchester service.

The LM Crewe-Euston service is partly franchise comittment and partly open access. I forget which bits are which are which.

Are you saying that people from the Warrington line are coming into Manchester to go out on the Knutsford line?

Thats going to be quite a slow journey (especialyl compared to the way the crow would fly...), and involving a couple of changes.

Yes people do that. Most probably only go as far as Stockport though.

The timings are:
Oxford Road arrival from CLC xx:04 (usually arrives a few minutes before that and before the train arrives the guard usually announces which platform the Scraborough service is arriving at)
Oxford Road departure for Scarborough: xx:07
Piccadilly arrival: xx:09
Chester departure: xx:17
Stockport arrival: xx:26
(Officially you can't do either connection but there are people who do both.)

For journeys like Knutsford-Urmston it's not a direct route to go by train. However, the direct alternative is:
Knutsford-Altrincham (train)
Altrincham-Stretford (tram)
Stretford-Urmston (bus)
and starting a multi-modal journey like that outside a PTE area isn't cheap. (For Knutsford-Urmston by train it would be sensible to split tickets.)

 

[tom1649]

The relevant RUS' suggest 2 car DMUs on Derby-Crewe and for it to be extended to the Airport. However, doing this doesn't give Derby a direct Manchester service.

Who would go that way from Derby to Manchester anyway? Surely it would still be quicker to go via Sheffield.

 

[northwichcat]

Who would go that way from Derby to Manchester anyway? Surely it would still be quicker to go via Sheffield.

Using an approximation on a map it's only a few miles difference and going via Sheffield would be the slow part because of the reversal, whereas going up the WCML a 90/100mph DMU could run flat out.

 

[tbtc]

Who would go that way from Derby to Manchester anyway? Surely it would still be quicker to go via Sheffield.

I remember suggesting an extension of the Hazel Grove terminators to the East Midlands as a way of avoiding the reversal at Sheffield and providing a faster direct route.

 

[Nym]

Right......

Additional Infrastructure:

Victoria - Chat Moss flow to be grade separated by a flyover over the current junction at Ordstall Lane, passing onto the Ordstall Ln - Deal St viaduct, now 4 track on the SE side, with the Castlefeild curve going on the NW side, under the viaduct, so that the Castlefeild Curve and services toward Salford Crescent don't interfere with services on the Chat Moss, that could be many tph.

Victoria termination facilities:

Additional bay platforms at Rochdale, Stalybridge and Ashburys, all electrified to Victoria.

Oxford Road re-building:

Re-build Oxford Road, cutting off Platform 5, and extending Platforms 4 and 1 to 8x23m long, there is space for this on the current viaduct if platforms 2 and 3 are cut to 4*23m and tracks slew inwards, with double scissor approaches on both sides. Trains would be able to enter and exit platforms independently so one may enter as the other leaves etc.
Platforms 5 and 6 (and possibly 7) would be served by a new extension of the Metrolink lines from Deansgate G-Mex over on a new semi-open, 2 viaduct over the street, and footpath on one side, with the footpath exclusively running under the viaduct after crossing the traffic lights at the top of the A5103. 2 or 3 100m long platforms for trams and tram/trains.

Metrolink Expansion:

Cornbrook would gain some tracks and platforms, the line between Cornbrook and Deansgate would be 4 track, with 2 leading across the city and the other two leading to the rebuilt oxford road. This would allow up to 60, 70 or 80 tph over the route, and with the terminating bays at Oxford Road, it would re-dress the balance of the lop sided network. It would also gain platforms on the CLC route.

Lines would be put in place to:

E. Didsbury extended to Stockport
Airport Line Loop completed
Salford Reds (Trafford Park) Line completed

And not previously proposed:

Salford Reds Line extended through Walkden to Bolton
Bolton - Bury - Rochdale (On to Rochdale using Tram/Train units)
Ashton Under Lyne - Oldham

And some strange ones that would maybe be politically unpopular

Manchester - Navigation Road - Lymm - Warrington Central (Tram/Train)

Also, the 'shared bits of track' would become actually shared between network rail trains and metrolink trains, with both platforms for both service types, the same at Alt'ham.

The general use of platforms would then be...

Platform 1: Westbound and Victoria Bound through services
Platform 2: Westbound, Victoria bound through services, and terminating services from either direction.
Platform 3: Eastbound, Piccadilly bound through services, and terminating services from either direction.
Platform 4: Eastbound and Piccadilly bound through services.

Additional Piccadilly Platforms:

Fairfeild St, either two additional platforms with 2 or 3 central roads in the slow lines toward Longsight as use for a headshunt for terminating services from Oxford Road, to share the termination of services. Or, 4 additional platforms, the two central of the new platforms used for terminating services.
Piccadilly East: Additional platforms on the East of Piccadilly for more services from the East Lines
6 track, 6 track between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Junction.

Service Patterns:

CLC:
TPE:
1tph Liverpool L St - Victoria - (Leeds) DMU
1tph Chester - Victoria - (Leeds) DMU

NT:
2tph Victoria - Liverpool L St All stations EMU
2tph Victoria - Wigan NW All stations (Additional station at Culceath) EMU
4tph Liverpool L St - Wigan, 2tph via each route. EMU
1tph Victoria - Warrington Central EMU (Opersite 0.5hr to the TPE service)
1tph Manchester Airport - Liverpool L St Limited Stop
1tph Victoria - Liverpool L St Limited Stop (Running in the operside 0.5hr to the TPE Service)

ICWC:
1tph Manchester Airport - Scotland

ATW:
1tph Manchester Piccadilly (Airport) - Llandudno / Holyhead.

CLC:

EMT:
1tph Liverpool L St - Norwich (As is)

NT:
1tph Liverpool L St - Buxton Limited Stop DMU (Liverpool L St - Liverpool S Parkway - Hunts Cross - Warrington Central - Birchwood - Cornbook - Deansgate - MCO - Piccadilly - Stockport - Hazel Grove - All Stations Buxton)
2tph All stations Manchester Piccadilly / Oxford Road - Liverpool Lime Street

And for the Mid Cheshire Line etc. (As I have hinted at), that would be tram-train operated from Platforms 5, 6, 7.

3tph Manchester Oxford Road - Chester via Altham (With passing loops possibly added later, a part 4 tracked metrolink network), keeping 1tph to Stockport.
2tph Manchester Oxford Road - Crewe via Altham and Middlewitch.

And maybe

2tph Manchester Oxford Road - Warrington Central via Lymm

And the rest of Metrolink:

3 - 5tph Bolton - Rochdale via Bury Interchange
3 - 5tph Bolton - Trafford Centre - Manchester OR
3 - 5tph Ashton U Lyne - Oldham

Anyway, I've ranted on enough now I think, time to get told I'm wrong as usual
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and as a PS: I'd also proberbly join in the Trafford Park line onto the Alt'ham line, and possibly even further on to the Airport Line, so that a service could potentially run, Bolton - Airport via Walkden, Salford Reds, Trafford Centre, Sale and Wythenshawe...

 

[stockport1]

hahaha love nyms optimismn but cant disagree.

Oxford road-alty must surely be converted back to heavy rail or at least shared train/tram.

the 2 carriage trams are packed and overall journey is slow.

there should be express alty - manchester trains (and not via stockport)

all north-wales/chester stuff could use this line and free up paths through stockport.

TBH id go the whole hog and have the fallowfield loop reopened for long distance/freight...alty line reopened and east didsbury kept as a terminator like rose hill is. all on 25kv too. the trams could take a s**t.

due to this line being tram only you have large towns like northwich and knutsford having limited services that are crowded. surely 4 tph with 2 of them semi fast would be approriate for these places?

 

[exile]

As someone living in Warrington with relatives in Leeds I don't favour the proposal to swap the TPE to the Newton route. Apart from my personal gripe - what would be the point of doing it anyway? Newton is going to provide a lot less custom than Warrington.

If it's set in stone, then a Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester-Airport is OK as an alternative - but (again wearing selfish hat) how about Sunday stoppers stopping at Sankey?

 

[northwichcat]

hahaha love nyms optimismn but cant disagree.

Oxford road-alty must surely be converted back to heavy rail or at least shared train/tram.

the 2 carriage trams are packed and overall journey is slow.

there should be express alty - manchester trains (and not via stockport)

all north-wales/chester stuff could use this line and free up paths through stockport.

TBH id go the whole hog and have the fallowfield loop reopened for long distance/freight...alty line reopened and east didsbury kept as a terminator like rose hill is. all on 25kv too. the trams could take a s**t.

due to this line being tram only you have large towns like northwich and knutsford having limited services that are crowded. surely 4 tph with 2 of them semi fast would be approriate for these places?

In the very very unlikely event of Altrincham-Sale-Manchester being heavy rail again. I'd suggest:

Peak time:
Chester-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (Express between Altrincham and Manchester) 1/2 hourly
Greenbank-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (Express between Altrincham and Manchester) 1/2 hourly
Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (all stops) 4tph to fit in between the expresses.
Altrincham-Stockport-Denton-Victoria 1/2 hourly

Off Peak
Greenbank-Altrincham-Manchester every 20 minutes - every 3rd train starts from Chester to give an hourly Chester service.
Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (all stops) 3tph to fit in between the expresses.
Altrincham-Stockport-Denton-Victoria hourly

Ashley, Mobberley and Plumley would be served by half of trains at peak times and a third of trains at off-peak times.

As someone living in Warrington with relatives in Leeds I don't favour the proposal to swap the TPE to the Newton route. Apart from my personal gripe - what would be the point of doing it anyway? Newton is going to provide a lot less custom than Warrington.

Supposedly it'll be quicker. However, when they add so many services in and TOCs add in their recovery time I don't know how much quicker it'll actually be.

 

[tbtc]

As someone living in Warrington with relatives in Leeds I don't favour the proposal to swap the TPE to the Newton route. Apart from my personal gripe - what would be the point of doing it anyway?

At the moment the Scarborough - Liverpool service has to cross every single line at Piccadilly (meaning nothing can enter/exit the eastern side of the station). Thats causes headaches in terms of scheduling. It also has to compete for paths through Guide Bridge.

Running via Victoria would get rid of those problems.

 

[stockport1]

In the very very unlikely event of Altrincham-Sale-Manchester being heavy rail again. I'd suggest:

Peak time:
Chester-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (Express between Altrincham and Manchester) 1/2 hourly
Greenbank-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (Express between Altrincham and Manchester) 1/2 hourly
Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (all stops) 4tph to fit in between the expresses.
Altrincham-Stockport-Denton-Victoria 1/2 hourly

Off Peak
Greenbank-Altrincham-Manchester every 20 minutes - every 3rd train starts from Chester to give an hourly Chester service.
Altrincham-Sale-Manchester (all stops) 3tph to fit in between the expresses.
Altrincham-Stockport-Denton-Victoria hourly

Ashley, Mobberley and Plumley would be served by half of trains at peak times and a third of trains at off-peak times.



Supposedly it'll be quicker. However, when they add so many services in and TOCs add in their recovery time I don't know how much quicker it'll actually be.

If it was all 25 kv Id have

chester - northwich - knutsford - altrincham - sale - manchester

on a nice class 350

 

[northwichcat]

If it was all 25 kv Id have

chester - northwich - knutsford - altrincham - sale - manchester

on a nice class 350

The preliminary work to electrify Altrincham-Northwich-Chester was carried out by BR but it was called off as it was deemed too expensive to implement.

If it had have gone ahead I imagine Metrolink to Altrincham wouldn't have gone ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the moment the Scarborough - Liverpool service has to cross every single line at Piccadilly (meaning nothing can enter/exit the eastern side of the station). Thats causes headaches in terms of scheduling. It also has to compete for paths through Guide Bridge.

Running via Victoria would get rid of those problems.

There will still be issues though. Victoria has 4 through platforms and all departures for westbound/northbound destinations like Liverpool, Southport, Blackpool, Kirkby, Wigan, Blackburn and Clitheroe have to use one of those four platforms even if they are terminating.

After Manchester Hub Victoria is set to have 2 x TPE services to Victoria and the Airport an hour, 2 x Calder Vale services to Victoria and the Airport an hour, additional Liverpool services including Liverpool to Scarborough.

Piccadilly is set to get a platform 15 and 16 and possibly a platform 0 but Victoria will be stuck with the existing platforms and a lot more services.