Coaching stock for steam tours in the future

[cce]

Thinking about long term options for steam tours, where opening windows are considered desirable, mk1s are increasingly treated as unsafe and most opening window mk2 have been bean tins for a long time, how feasible or likely are the following

Converting MK2 aircons to PV and opening windows

Converting MK3 or MK4 to pv and opening windows

(Most expensive probably) new build - probably based on the Mk5 - with opening windows etc. I know the Mk5 is quite high tech and more like an unpowered multiple unit, but does it have to be?

 

[Bertie the bus]

(Most expensive probably) new build - probably based on the Mk5 - with opening windows etc. I know the Mk5 is quite high tech and more like an unpowered multiple unit, but does it have to be?

New builds are not going to happen. You are looking at probably at least £2 million per carriage and it would take decades to recoup that cost from running a few railtours. It would probably take longer to recoup the cost than the life expectancy of the carriages.

 

[cce]

New builds are not going to happen. You are looking at probably at least £2 million per carriage and it would take decades to recoup that cost from running a few railtours. It would probably take longer to recoup the cost than the life expectancy of the carriages.

That's definitely scratched that from the list.

 

[JonathanH]

The best option is sealed rolling stock for passenger safety and a sound system so that everyone can hear the work of the steam locomotive.

 

[yorksrob]

The best solution is to retain mk1's and withdraw some of the hysteria instead.

 

[LUYMun]

The best option is sealed rolling stock for passenger safety and a sound system so that everyone can hear the work of the steam locomotive.

But at the end of the day a sound system is just a gimmick, and it’s not fooling anyone. Which begs the question, would people be willing to pay three-figure sums to remain seated in a glorified armchair without actually hearing, smelling and seeing the motive power?

 

[cce]

But at the end of the day a sound system is just a gimmick, and it’s not fooling anyone. Which begs the question, would people be willing to pay three-figure sums to remain seated in a glorified armchair without actually hearing, smelling and seeing the motive power?

as a "car person" too, some performance cars, their engines muted by forced induction systems, have taken to piping sound into the cabin, which is roundly pilloried by enthusiasts, who also like to hear the machine.

 

[Mike Machin]

The best solution is to retain mk1's and withdraw some of the hysteria instead.

Definitely the best suggestion. A really thorough overhaul and refurbishment, toilet retention tanks fitted and then just plain common sense from passengers and staff!

 

[HSTEd]

It seems likely, that given this mess and the upcoming ETCS requirement, that we are in the twilight of the steam railtour era.

 

[6Gman]

And given that nobody under the age of around 60 can remember steam locos in use in normal traffic is the "enthusiast" market (as opposed to the "wine & dine day out" market) about to drop off a cliff?

I'm thinking that the wine & diners like the idea of a steam loco on the front but aren't hugely troubled by the sound and smells en route?

 

[52290]

And given that nobody under the age of around 60 can remember steam locos in use in normal traffic is the "enthusiast" market (as opposed to the "wine & dine day out" market) about to drop off a cliff?

I'm thinking that the wine & diners like the idea of a steam loco on the front but aren't hugely troubled by the sound and smells en route?

As one who can remember steam locos in normal use it would be entirely authentic for passengers to want to block out the sounds and smells of the loco. We enthusiasts could get into serious trouble with normals by opening windows and leaning out etc.

 

[cce]

I suspect even customers who were born decades after steam want it to feel 'old fashioned' so maybe wood panelling and strips of metal to make the windows look 'like the Hogwarts express' on a MK2 MK3 or mk4 will do?

 

[Sun Chariot]

The best solution is to retain mk1's and withdraw some of the hysteria instead.

There may well come the point where they'll need significant alterations to meet structural safety legislation.

I think a wider use of Ml2 D-F makes sense. Passengers still see the smoke passing the window - and, on usual haulage conditions, the sound of the loco is muffled or inaudible, 4+ coaches back regardless of whether the windows open.

 

[randyrippley]

An obvious answer is to use class 156 DMUs with the engines and transmission removed.
You would have to add / convert a van of some kind to provide ETH and door power. Maybe a 153/155 chassis with a fibreglass body holding a diesel genset?

 

[JonathanH]

An obvious answer is to use class 156 DMUs with the engines and transmission removed.

Might need some buffers and different couplers, plus a different braking system, but the idea does seem on the right lines, given the good sightlines from inside, and opening windows.

One challenge may well be corrosion of the 156s.

 

[Whistler40145]

Not all steam locos have air brakes, so Mk 3s and Mk 4s would be pretty useless

 

[HSTEd]

Not all steam locos have air brakes, so Mk 3s and Mk 4s would be pretty useless

At some point we are going to have to make a decision about what equipment is going to have to be fitted to steam locomotives.

If they are going to need ETCS equipment regardless, it might not be unreasonable to fit a steam-driven compressor unit.

 

[Sun Chariot]

An obvious answer is to use class 156 DMUs with the engines and transmission removed.

Assuming the compatibility scope/cost isn't prohibitive, then they could potentially offer the powered assistance, instead of a rear helper loco

 

[JLH4AC]

As the crashworthiness of the Mark 2 carriages, and misuse of sliding windows are likely to be in the crosshairs of the ORR in the future, heavily refitted Mark 3 carriages would likely be the best option in the long term to provide a comparable experience to 1950s/60s steam travel in line with modern safely standards (Even if new carriages were built it have to close to such a design to provide a comparable experience.). Hooper windows could replace the current windows to allow smell and sound into the cabin more easily without people easily sticking their limbs out of the windows.

Not all steam locos have air brakes, so Mk 3s and Mk 4s would be pretty useless

In the long term, newly built locomotives like the 60163 Tornado and 72010 Hengist are likely to displace steam era locomotives from the mainline rail tours as there will come a point when owners of preserved locomotives will refuse to install the required safety systems as it would be seen to negatively affect their preservation. 60163 Tornado has air brakes, and the proposed/under construction locomotives intended for mainline use will likely have to install air brake systems along with all the required safety systems.

 

[D365]

Assuming the compatibility scope/cost isn't prohibitive, then they could potentially offer the powered assistance, instead of a rear helper loco

Replacing the Westcode braking system on Class 15x would be a total non-starter, technically and commercially.

In the long term, newly built locomotives like the 60163 Tornado and 72010 Hengist are likely to displace steam era locomotives from the mainline rail tours as there will come a point when owners of preserved locomotives will refuse to install the required safety systems as it would be seen to negatively affect their preservation. 60163 Tornado has air brakes, and the proposed/under construction locomotives intended for mainline use will likely have to install air brake systems along with all the required safety systems.

Tornado is currently being fitted with ETCS. Whether any other 'heritage' locomotives will be fitted and, more importantly, commissioned, remains to be seen.

 

[JLH4AC]

Tornado is currently being fitted with ETCS. Whether any other 'heritage' locomotives will be fitted and, more importantly, commissioned, remains to be seen

I am aware that Tornado is currently being fitted with ETCS, that is one of the reasons why I do not share the view shared by others in this thread that it and other new safety standards will lead to the end of the steam railtour era, it just will be different. It would make sense for all proposed/under construction locomotives intended for mainline use to have ETCS installed as ETCS is going replace the TPWS and AWS in the long term thus they will need it to operate on the mainline, and it seems wiser to install it during construction instead having to take the locomotive out of service to install it.

 

[cce]

I saw today on Facebook that riviera appear to be fitting opening windows to some AC MK2 coaches.

 

[bleeder4]

I saw today on Facebook that riviera appear to be fitting opening windows to some AC MK2 coaches.

Beat me to it. I just came here to post that. Here is a link to a photo - https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbi...m.7135632399877211&idorvanity=573173142789869

I'll be travelling in the Riviera stock on Saturday on the Pathfinder tour, so if these coaches are in use that day I should be able to get a good look at the windows.

 

[renegademaster]

Beat me to it. I just came here to post that. Here is a link to a photo - https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbi...m.7135632399877211&idorvanity=573173142789869

I'll be travelling in the Riviera stock on Saturday on the Pathfinder tour, so if these coaches are in use that day I should be able to get a good look at the windows.

You can still stick your hand and a camera out of that. I hope the ORR will be reasonable but i can see them not be, but hopefully they got approval first.