Communication cord / Emergency stop

[Backroom_boy]

I was on a GWR 800 (possibly 802) the other day and the 'emergency handle' was labeled something like 'communicate with the driver in an emergency' nothing about it being an emergency stop. Has the whole 'pull the cord' procedure changed on modern classes or just the labelling?

 

[skyhigh]

Has the whole 'pull the cord' procedure changed on modern classes

On the newer stock I know of it no longer applies the brake immediately under all circumstances. The driver gets the chance to override, to avoid the train stopping in an unsafe location.

There are certain conditions where it will still automatically apply the brake immediately however.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

On the newer stock I know of it no longer applies the brake immediately under all circumstances. The driver gets the chance to override, to avoid the train stopping in an unsafe location.

There are certain conditions where it will still automatically apply the brake immediately however.

Any idea what those situations are? I'm assuming that the TMS would make the decision?

 

[TurboMan]

Any idea what those situations are? I'm assuming that the TMS would make the decision?

Not unless the TMS is competent in the relevant rules, and has the necessary route knowledge to know if there's a tunnel up ahead, or a station, or....

It's down to the driver to make the call as to whether to override the brake demand, although the train must brought to an immediate stand if a passcomm is operated as the train is leaving a station, or if there is an immediate danger.

On some newer traction the brake demand cannot be overridden if the speed hasn't exceeded a certain level since the last door release and dispatch, this being on the basis that this is likely to be because the train is leaving a station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

I was on a GWR 800 (possibly 802) the other day and the 'emergency handle' was labeled something like 'communicate with the driver in an emergency' nothing about it being an emergency stop. Has the whole 'pull the cord' procedure changed on modern classes or just the labelling?

Some of what are labelled emergency alarm on an 800 are call for aids which don't apply the brake.

 

[Horizon22]

Any idea what those situations are? I'm assuming that the TMS would make the decision?

Speed of the train normally.

There are two different handles/cords however.

1: Passenger communication ("passcom") alarm / call for aid. Normally something that allows the driver to communicate with the person(s) who have pulled the cord and ascertain what the issue is. Driver / TM could override or come to a controlled stop as suitable (e.g. next station)

2: Emergency egress handle. This is the one that would eventually stop the train, and the doors would partially open if the train was going ~5mph (I'm sure someone will know the exact figures and it may vary) or stationary.

One is red (passcom), one is green (emergency egress) on most stock.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Speed of the train normally.

There are two different handles/cords however.

1: Passenger communication ("passcom") alarm / call for aid. Normally something that allows the driver to communicate with the person(s) who have pulled the cord and ascertain what the issue is. Driver / TM could override or come to a controlled stop as suitable (e.g. next station)

2: Emergency egress handle. This is the one that would eventually stop the train, and the doors would partially open if the train was going ~5mph (I'm sure someone will know the exact figures and it may vary) or stationary.

One is red (passcom), one is green (emergency egress) on most stock.

A lot of stock these days actually has three. PassComm/Emergency Alarm (red), Call For Aid (green, depending on stock may be located near PassComm or only in PRM areas/toilets) and Emergency Egress (green on newer stock, red on older stock, usually behind a glass/perspex cover)

 

[Trainman40083]

Imagine a scenario where there was a medical emergency... .In such a case, the ideal might be to stop the train in a safe place, such as a station or other access point, where ambulance staff can access .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine a scenario where there was a medical emergency... .In such a case, the ideal might be to stop the train in a safe place, such as a station or other access point, where ambulance staff can access .

For that reason in much of Europe you do tend to have separate red (emergency brake) and green (passcom) facilities. This has made it to the UK in some of the CAF stock too, pretty sure the 195s do.

 

[Trainman40083]

For that reason in much of Europe you do tend to have separate red (emergency brake) and green (passcom) facilities. This has made it to the UK in some of the CAF stock too, pretty sure the 195s do.

With you talking about separate facilities, it reminds me of when the Class 156 DMUs were introduced. In the toilet, there were two handles, next to each other. One red, one brown. Well, we all know what the brown one did. Flush... The red one brought the train to a very abrupt halt, and I travelled on many such trains. In fact, twice on one journey. I can only presume they were quickly modified.

 

[43096]

Imagine a scenario where there was a medical emergency... .In such a case, the ideal might be to stop the train in a safe place, such as a station or other access point, where ambulance staff can access .

In a medical emergency, do not use the PassComm - you do not want to stop between stations if paramedic attendance is required.

 

[Horizon22]

In a medical emergency, do not use the PassComm - you do not want to stop between stations if paramedic attendance is required.

But as stated above, this won't bring the train to a stop between stations.

It does however raise the alarm to the driver/guard. A DOO service can advise the signaller/control so that paramedics can be called in advance, and on a guarded service, they could also attend the relevant coach and directly call the amublance to meet the train on arrival at the next stations. So yes, the alarm should be raised.

 

[TurboMan]

But as stated above, this won't bring the train to a stop between stations.

It will on some older traction that doesn't have the facility for the driver to override the brake demand.

 

[Trainman40083]

But as stated above, this won't bring the train to a stop between stations.

It does however raise the alarm to the driver/guard. A DOO service can advise the signaller/control so that paramedics can be called in advance, and on a guarded service, they could also attend the relevant coach and directly call the amublance to meet the train on arrival at the next stations. So yes, the alarm should be raised.

You sure would not want a train to come to a standstill, where help cannot be accessed, with the faff of restarting the train.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In a medical emergency, do not use the PassComm - you do not want to stop between stations if paramedic attendance is required.

But as stated above, this won't bring the train to a stop between stations.

You sure would not want a train to come to a standstill, where help cannot be accessed, with the faff of restarting the train.

Exactly that train of thought went through my mind when a fellow passenger had an epileptic fit on a train (a pre-refurbishment 455) departing Waterloo.
Should I pull the cord now, or wait until we reach Vauxhall (and risk someone doing it en route)?
So I did pull it - which blocked several platforms as the train was by then half out of the station and blocking the throat, but my carriage was still in the platform.
Turned out to be a good call, as a paramedic on a motorcycle was able to come right alongside, which would have been difficult at Vauxhall!

 

[Trainman40083]

Exactly that train of thought went through my mind when a fellow passenger had an epileptic fit on a train (a pre-refurbishment 455) departing Waterloo.
Should I pull the cord now, or wait until we reach Vauxhall (and risk someone doing it en route)?
So I did pull it - which blocked several platforms as the train was by then half out of the station and blocking the throat, but my carriage was still in the platform.
Turned out to be a good call, as a paramedic on a motorcycle was able to come right alongside, which would have been difficult at Vauxhall!

Best to know what to do when someone has a fit, I guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Best to know what to do when someone has a fit, I guess.

Which is, FWIW, to ensure they have space to have a fit and are protected (e.g. via soft things like clothing) from clouting anything hard. It's fairly likely it's completely expected and an ambulance may not be required at all. The best thing to do if it happens on a train would be to help them to the floor (as they'll end up there soon enough anyway) and ensure people stay clear.

We really do need more first aid training in wider society - I'd love to see a mandatory day a year for each schoolchild, for instance.

 

[Horizon22]

You sure would not want a train to come to a standstill, where help cannot be accessed, with the faff of restarting the train.

As I said though, newer stock would not bring the train to a standstill in the middle of the sticks and instead it would come to a controlled stop, at a station.

Doesn't help different stock behaves in different ways.

 

[Trainman40083]

Which is, FWIW, to ensure they have space to have a fit and are protected (e.g. via soft things like clothing) from clouting anything hard. It's fairly likely it's completely expected and an ambulance may not be required at all. The best thing to do if it happens on a train would be to help them to the floor (as they'll end up there soon enough anyway) and ensure people stay clear.

We really do need more first aid training in wider society - I'd love to see a mandatory day a year for each schoolchild, for instance.

Certainly do need more training...I fear in today's world, some would be more likely to film it on their mobile than be of help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly do need more training...I fear in today's world, some would be more likely to film it on their mobile than be of help.

TBH standing filming it on their phone might ironically actually be more helpful than pulling the cord. Though I do get your point, and because of the embarrassment factor (often they'll urinate etc involuntarily, for instance) they clearly won't want to be filmed.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Which is, FWIW, to ensure they have space to have a fit and are protected (e.g. via soft things like clothing) from clouting anything hard. It's fairly likely it's completely expected and an ambulance may not be required at all. The best thing to do if it happens on a train would be to help them to the floor (as they'll end up there soon enough anyway) and ensure people stay clear.

We really do need more first aid training in wider society - I'd love to see a mandatory day a year for each schoolchild, for instance.

This.

As someone with epilepsy I don't want someone to call an ambulance unless a seizure is over 7 minutes. Spending all day waiting for neurology who then go off duty until the next day isn't fun.

Everything described is correct and what should be done, I would add that do not, under any circumstances attempt to hold them down.

If tonic clonic they may be confused when the come round, give them space. A lot of us can be quite shirty for a few minutes afterwards and best not to get in the way other than for safety reasons

 

[Horizon22]

This.

As someone with epilepsy I don't want someone to call an ambulance unless a seizure is over 7 minutes. Spending all day waiting for neurology who then go off duty until the next day isn't fun.

Everything described is correct and what should be done, I would add that do not, under any circumstances attempt to hold them down.

If tonic clonic they may be confused when the come round, give them space. A lot of us can be quite shirty for a few minutes afterwards and best not to get in the way other than for safety reasons

This certainly seems to be my experience for incidents. Normally train held for a little bit in a station, an ambulance is naturally called by concerned passengers/staff as instructions are to not attempt to move the individual whilst actively fitting (naturally). But often when the person comes around they decline further assistance and normally alight to gather themselves and ambulance is often cancelled. Short delay to services.

 

[norbitonflyer]

This certainly seems to be my experience for incidents. Normally train held for a little bit in a station, an ambulance is naturally called by concerned passengers/staff as instructions are to not attempt to move the individual whilst actively fitting (naturally). But often when the person comes around they decline further assistance and normally alight to gather themselves and ambulance is often cancelled. Short delay to services.

Which is what happened. I stopped the train when it was still partially in the station more out of concern that someone else would do it on the viaduct. The motorcycle paramedic assisted the passenger off the train but (obviously) didn't take him to hospital himself. As the train then left, I do not know whether the gentleman was taken to hospital or caught a later train.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Exactly that train of thought went through my mind when a fellow passenger had an epileptic fit on a train (a pre-refurbishment 455) departing Waterloo.
Should I pull the cord now, or wait until we reach Vauxhall (and risk someone doing it en route)?
So I did pull it - which blocked several platforms as the train was by then half out of the station and blocking the throat, but my carriage was still in the platform.
Turned out to be a good call, as a paramedic on a motorcycle was able to come right alongside, which would have been difficult at Vauxhall!

That’s fair enough as the train was still technically at Waterloo.

 

[Kauntrilla]

What is driver s action if egress is pulled during a journey? Train on move at 100 mph?

 

[ainsworth74]

What is driver s action if egress is pulled during a journey? Train on move at 100 mph?

Work out why the emergency brake has kicked in? I believe if you pull an emergency egress that would just kick the brakes in and there's not a lot that the driver can do!

 

[Horizon22]

What is driver s action if egress is pulled during a journey? Train on move at 100 mph?

Well firstly they’ll get an alarm and then (not sure it’s universal but happy to be corrected) an emergency brake application. The doors won’t open unless operated when the train is below a certain (very low) speed.

 

[Kauntrilla]

My actual question is can driver override brake demand once egress is pulled at 100 mph?

 

[43096]

My actual question is can driver override brake demand once egress is pulled at 100 mph?

For a start it likely depends on the type of train. On some stock there is no override capability.

 

[skyhigh]

My actual question is can driver override brake demand once egress is pulled at 100 mph?

Depends on the stock. Why do you want to know?

 

[Kauntrilla]

Depends on the stock. Why do you want to know?

Just confused with passcom and egress. Driver definitely can override the passcom. I was thinking can driver override egress too?