Commuter knew better than apps

[Jamiescott1]

This morning the 0633 from maidenhead to Paddington (starting at Didcot) was showing on the screens at the station, the gwr app and real train times that it was going to depart from platform 2 (as it always does).
One very loud commuter told everyone that today it will depart from platform 4 and went and stood on platform 4.
At 0633, there was a last minute platform alteration and the train did depart from platform 4.
How did the commuter know this 10 minutes in advance. Is there a more accurate website he used ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly he was following it on Traksy or OpenTrainTimes signalling maps?

 

[trainmania100]

Probably used opentraintimes and saw it was on the lines to platform 4 instead of 2. It doesn't look like there are any junctions leading from the up fast to up slow, since well before Twyford.

 

[jfollows]

The train crossed to the main lines at Ruscombe, after Twyford, and https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/slough#LINK_1 will have shown this. Once crossed, it couldn’t have used its normal platform at Maidenhead. It used the relief line, as booked, from Didcot to Ruscombe. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y22323/2025-01-07/detailed#allox_id=0 shows the train’s history, although probably wouldn’t have helped much at the time.

It’s bad that the alteration was not picked up by the information screens at Maidenhead.

1P92 is what you need to look for.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Sadly not unusual, have had this at Banbury where a train is booked into Platform 1, but OpenTrainTimes clearly shows it going into 2, and the displays have not been updated until the train is actually pulling in.
Have even had station staff helpfully approach me to tell me I'm waiting on the wrong platform.

Fortunately in this case they're two sides of an island so less of an issue.

 

[Horizon22]

The train crossed to the main lines at Ruscombe, after Twyford, and https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/slough#LINK_1 will have shown this. Once crossed, it couldn’t have used its normal platform at Maidenhead. It used the relief line, as booked, from Didcot to Ruscombe. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y22323/2025-01-07/detailed#allox_id=0 shows the train’s history, although probably wouldn’t have helped much at the time.

It’s bad that the alteration was not picked up by the information screens at Maidenhead.

1P92 is what you need to look for.

It wouldn't do until the train has gone through the particular berth before Maidenhead platform.

Otherwise it is dependent on a manual alteration from someone in GWR control, an there is no way that controllers can have eyes on every single bit of the network at any given time, especially if there is no awareness of an ongoing situation. Some proactive signallers phone stations ahead if they can, but it's not universal.

 

[plugwash]

This feels like the sort of issue an organisation with joined up thinking could easilly resolve. It shouldn't be beyond the will of man to detect that it is no longer physically possible for a train to reach it's booked platform and either automatically correct it if there is only one possibility for where it will end up or at least flag up an alert.

But there is no performance metric for "number of passengers left behind on platforms due to late notice platform changes", so there is no incentive to fix it in a system focussed on costs and metrics.

 

[507020]

It wouldn't do until the train has gone through the particular berth before Maidenhead platform.

But it’s not the berth immediately before the Maidenhead UM platform, it’s several berths before that, when it is no longer possible for it to cross back to the UR.

At that point, it is known with absolutely certainty which platform it will be using because the track layout only gives one option, but screens and announcements continue to show known incorrect information.

 

[jon0844]

The CIS doesn't get the necessary information to do this. It would need to be seen manually and then amended.

Maybe when everything goes in cab signalling the routing data will be different and can change the CIS as well as improve train tracking.

 

[Horizon22]

But it’s not the berth immediately before the Maidenhead UM platform, it’s several berths before that, when it is no longer possible for it to cross back to the UR.

At that point, it is known with absolutely certainty which platform it will be using because the track layout only gives one option, but screens and announcements continue to show known incorrect information.

Yes I am fully aware, I am just saying that is not how CIS systems work. It would require a huge amount of investment to reconfigure everything and individualise it based on every specific layout at every location in the country. And even then, the last berth often provides multiple options.

In this case, the train could also have been on Platform 5 which isn't so bad because its an island platform, but would still be wrong.

 

[norbitonflyer]

People do have a touching faith in their apps. I was on a Sheffield to London train this afternoon - the last call before London is Leicester, at which point it was running about 15 minutes late. Four lads in the seats behind me started getting very agitated when the train whizzed through Market Harborough.
Turned out they had expected to be on the following train, which was due to leave Leicester at almost exactly the time my train actually called, and had in consequence been routed onto the platform on the other side of the island to allow connections to be maintained (having arrived on time, before mine). Not looking at the departure screens, and ignoring the train that had actually appeared first (albeit not on the usual platform, resulted in them travelling 182 miles instead of 16, and taking two-and-a-quarter hours instead of 14 minutes.

Fortunately the train manager was sympathetic and there was a train back to Leicestershire within ten minutes of their arrival at St Pancras, which she assured them she would take them to (whether to tell the crew of that train what had happened, or just to ensure they caught it and didn't get a cheap visit to London, I can't say)

 

[Deepgreen]

Whatever the detailed 'reasons' it is very poor that this sort of thing happens. I have done it frequently by referring to apps rather than believing the official information.

 

[43066]

Whatever the detailed 'reasons' it is very poor that this sort of thing happens. I have done it frequently by referring to apps rather than believing the official information.

Really? In my experience of this happening an announcement is made, and people then simply hurry across to the correct platform.

As noted above, getting CIS systems nationwide at all locations capable of detecting instantly where these alterations are made is likely to be either impossible, or unjustifiably expensive.

Just because the system isn’t perfect in every conceivable situation doesn’t mean it’s “very poor”.

 

[jon0844]

The CIS just looks at certain berths to update the displays and other sources of information. As I said above, with the new signalling being introduced over the coming years it might be possible to combine the data more effectively to detect such platform changes/changes of route, as well as being better able to determine where a train actually is.

The signalling & passenger information displays are not part of one single system as far as I can see.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Personally I'm looking forward to the wonderful world of AI-powered Passenger Information Systems...

 

[OscarH]

Yes I am fully aware, I am just saying that is not how CIS systems work. It would require a huge amount of investment to reconfigure everything and individualise it based on every specific layout at every location in the country. And even then, the last berth often provides multiple options.

In this case, the train could also have been on Platform 5 which isn't so bad because its an island platform, but would still be wrong.

I know enough about how these things go with the organisations involved that I'm sure they have ended up concluding that it's prohibitively expensive for technical reasons. I'm not convinced I believe that in real terms though

 

[Deepgreen]

Really? In my experience of this happening an announcement is made, and people then simply hurry across to the correct platform.

As noted above, getting CIS systems nationwide at all locations capable of detecting instantly where these alterations are made is likely to be either impossible, or unjustifiably expensive.

Just because the system isn’t perfect in every conceivable situation doesn’t mean it’s “very poor”.

"Instantly" isn't the issue - it's when a passenger can be better informed than the staff, or at least better than the information officially disseminated. Not everyone, by a long way, can "hurry" from platform to platform. I used to use Redhill as a commuter and it was rife there, to give one example, and it was far from "every conceivable situation" - they were very conceivable situations.

 

[Winthorpe]

Believe it or not, but software isn’t ‘smart’. It is programmed to do what it does.

Do you really expect every station to have a bespoke software implementation that is tailored to the signal layout?

AI could help, but it only responds to patterns. And then basically guess on past experience.

You never get around having staff on the ground. Alert them to an unusual move and ask via a notification if the platform information should be updated.

 

[Horizon22]

I know enough about how these things go with the organisations involved that I'm sure they have ended up concluding that it's prohibitively expensive for technical reasons. I'm not convinced I believe that in real terms though

Believe what you want, but if there was an easy and cheap solution, it would have been done. Some sort of "predicative AI" might be worth researching but I'd imagine there'd be lots of false negatives too, not to mention the in the OP's case there's no guarantee of a platform (even if Platform 4 was more likely than Platform 5).

"Instantly" isn't the issue - it's when a passenger can be better informed than the staff, or at least better than the information officially disseminated.

The issue is that the passenger is looking for one specific train at one specific time. Anyone with a passing knowledge of RTT or some sort of mapping tool can anticipate a more accurate delay or see an issue unfold. The station staff (if they aren't just on the gateline or in the ticket office doing other duties) aren't necessarily going to know any more.

Information controllers are looking at potentially hundreds of trains and issues and without notification otherwise, will not be staring at their equivalent (an offical one) of Signalmaps permanently to be able to check every potential platform or timetable pertubation.

Most station staff (outside larger hubs) do not have the power to alter their CIS system or potentially even live PAs and most signallers do not necessarily have the opportunity or time to let route control or the station about every possible platform alteration, even if in an ideal world they should let the operator know. If there's an ongoing infrastructure issue that's another question as that's an ordered and organised block and things can be done in a more methodical manner but that is also where workload massively escalates and it is inconceivable to get 100% accuracy on all the passenger information inputs.

This is not to say people are not acutely aware of the issue, but it's more complicated than just saying "change the platform".

 

[Adam Williams]

Sometimes things that fundamentally should be cheap and straightforward aren't, for non-technical reasons

 

[jon0844]

Sometimes things that fundamentally should be cheap and straightforward aren't, for non-technical reasons

Ultimately, the CIS (and audio announcements, which are usually separate again) aren't driven by the system that manages the signalling. If it was the same system and the screens and speakers got the info from a signalling centre, it could work as people want it to.

What's happening is when a train goes somewhere not booked, that data is fed to other systems and the CIS then picks this up and plays the announcement of a platform alteration. Depending on how long it takes for a train to arrive on the platform from the last signal, that might not leave a lot of time - especially if a train has a short dwell time.

 

[arb]

My gut feel (and it is only a gut feel, I wish I had hard data to back this up) is that platform alterations are now announced later than they were in the past. I recall a platform alteration announcement used to result in a polite "tut" to the person next to you on the platform, followed by a casual stroll to the new platform. Now it seems like they're always a massive rush, because they're announced so much closer to the departure time of the train than they used to be. As I said, that is an unsubstantiated claim, definitely along the lines of "things were always better in the olden days", and I wish I could back it up somehow, but I can't.

From time-to-time I also now see cases of information simply not updating at all, e.g. the "next train" screen on a platform claiming a train that has already arrived in the platform is not the train it actually is. I assume this is the result of a platform alteration but the screens continuing to show the next train that was originally planned to be at that platform? For example, just the other day, at Ely, I boarded a Great Northern train to King's Cross despite the screens claiming it was an East Midlands train to Norwich departing 20 minutes later, with no verbal announcements attempting to correct this. Both the signalling maps, and, of course, the train livery, told me (as a regular commuter from Ely) that the information screens were wrong. But this kind of thing has the potential to send a non-regular traveller to completely the wrong place.

 

[DailyCommuter]

I've had similar issues to the OP with similar Didcot to Paddington trains but at Tilehurst. On the rare occasions it's switched unplanned from the relief to fasts the CIS doesn't update, not even just before arrival. The last junction to crossover is 15 mins beforehand.

Once I've spotted on the National Rail app that the Pangbourne stop was removed (no fast platform) so checked OpenTrainTimes and went directly to the fast platform, but the rest of the morning commuters didn't make it. Some part of control clearly knew as the Pangbourne stop had been updated.

Another time I spotted with enough time to shout over to those waiting on the relief like platform. One person said they had missed the previous train as that was platform altered too and wasn't announced.

A third time the part time ticket office staff noticed and was warning people as they arrived in the station, saying to ignore the screens.

Even if it should update one berth out, that's not much time as passengers need cross via the bridge and then walk along to the access gate for the up fast platform.

From an average customers point of view this does seem poor that a train 'locked in' to a different platform up to 15 mins beforehand can't be updated on the CIS in time, whatever the technical or operational reasons.

 

[CBlue]

Personally I'm looking forward to the wonderful world of AI-powered Passenger Information Systems...

Great, given the commercial "AI's" out there tend to hallucinate and spout nonsense I look forward to being told my train to Liverpool St on platform 2 is actually bound for Manchester from Platform 68...

 

[43066]

Not everyone, by a long way, can "hurry" from platform to platform. I used to use Redhill as a commuter and it was rife there, to give one example, and it was far from "every conceivable situation" - they were very conceivable situations.

The reasons the current system has the limitations it does are well explained above, and the question inevitably becomes who between signallers, controllers, platform staff do we expect to be monitoring these issues in real time to provide updates? The answer is that there are nowhere near enough of any of them to do so.

The current system performs adequately most of the time. It isn’t perfect, but it hardly seems reasonable to describe it as “very poor” based on a few edge cases, and some locations where it may be worse than others.

Will passengers occasionally be left behind due to late notification of re-platformed trains? Probably. Is this a widespread issue, that justifies reinventing the wheel and changing the current system? Not in my experience of using and working on the railway.

Do you really expect every station to have a bespoke software implementation that is tailored to the signal layout?

Indeed. This is the kind of thing that simply isn’t going to be affordable, especially given how fares and operating costs are often criticised as being too high.

You never get around having staff on the ground. Alert them to an unusual move and ask via a notification if the platform information should be updated.

Agreed. On the occasions where I’ve experienced platforms alterations the situation is generally handled by dispatch being be delayed to allow people to cross. Obviously it helps if there are platform staff to do this, it’s less likely to work if it’s just traincrew, and especially if it’s just a driver, who won’t know whether announcements have been made or not, nor even whether the platform has been changed from booked in the first place.

 

[The exile]

Sadly not unusual, have had this at Banbury where a train is booked into Platform 1, but OpenTrainTimes clearly shows it going into 2, and the displays have not been updated until the train is actually pulling in.
Have even had station staff helpfully approach me to tell me I'm waiting on the wrong platform.

Fortunately in this case they're two sides of an island so less of an issue.

Happens frequently at Bristol Parkway as well (usually not much of an issue as the change is cross-platform) and at Bath where the PIS somehow expects one train to leapfrog the other between Bathampton Junction and the station.

Believe it or not, but software isn’t ‘smart’. It is programmed to do what it does.

So it has been programmed or commissioned incompetently as it has got noticeably worse with the introduction of new systems.

 

[norbitonflyer]

On the Kingston loop it is quite ciommon to have trains shown as "expected" at a certain time half an hour or more in the past. What seems to happen is that the train's departure has been logged at Fulwell as x minutes late, and that has been extrapolated to estimate a time at subsequentb stations - but it's been diverted via Richmond so it never showed up at Teddington and subsequent stations, and is lost to the system, which simply continues to show the last information it had. Whoever programmed the system appears not to have covered this situation.

The general problem with alterations not being communicated to passengers on the platform seems to be a symptom of the general reduction in staffing - what staff are left on stations do not have the time to monitor every approaching train, "Control" do not have the time to tell the staff on the ground of every change, and even if the station staff notice that the CIS is talking nonsense they are not able to interfere with it, and not allowed to switch it off.

 

[nickswift99]

Believe it or not, but software isn’t ‘smart’. It is programmed to do what it does.

Do you really expect every station to have a bespoke software implementation that is tailored to the signal layout?

AI could help, but it only responds to patterns. And then basically guess on past experience.

You never get around having staff on the ground. Alert them to an unusual move and ask via a notification if the platform information should be updated.

It doesn’t need bespoke software. I built a demonstration PIS that interfaced with ARS back in 1993. It would automatically detect changes like this based on route setting and berths.

Just needed a very small amount of configuration data to allow a PC to drive displays.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Thanks all. This morning I used open train times and saw the train hadn't crossed to the main line after twyford as scheduled.
I remained on platform 4/5 and as predicted the cis updated as the train pulled into platform 5 and the mad rush of people from platform 2

 

[Horizon22]

So it has been programmed or commissioned incompetently as it has got noticeably worse with the introduction of new systems.

How did you gather that? It’s no worse than in the 80s or 90s but you have less station staff around now with working operation knowledge and relationships with signallers. This is more of a problem than the actual systems themselves.

That being said some of the new entrants to the field of CIS provision do have software that isn’t as reliable at picking up platform changes & unit swaps in service.