Company buying tickets for its staff

[34D]

Hello,

Can company A purchase a day return ticket (booked in the name of the company) and give both portions to Asram (an employee).... who then undertakes the outward journey.... and then gives the return portion to Billy (also an employee) who undertakes the return journey?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A company can buy a ticket for the employee, but the employee is not permitted to pass that ticket on to another person. In these cases, the company should buy each employee a single ticket.

 

[AndyW33]

Obviously in practice as long as the second employee travels on a train for which the ticket is valid guards/RPIs/barrier staff have no way of knowing this is happening. The two portions would need to be present on the outward journey just in case anyone insisted on seeing them.

I believe that there have been cases in BR days where this sort of thing became such a long-established habit in companies that the facts leaked out and action was taken.

 

[island]

Hello,

Can company A purchase a day return ticket (booked in the name of the company) and give both portions to Asram (an employee).... who then undertakes the outward journey.... and then gives the return portion to Billy (also an employee) who undertakes the return journey?

This is not allowed but essentially impossible to catch.

 

[Deerfold]

This is not allowed but essentially impossible to catch.

Although if Asram is not carrying the return portion with him they could face problems if the Guard asks to see it.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Although frequently its cheaper to buy 2 singles anyway!

 

[island]

Although frequently its cheaper to buy 2 singles anyway!

Could you cite an example of two singles being cheaper than a day return, please?

 

[LexyBoy]

34D's question relates to NRCoC 6:

6. Transferring a ticket to another person
A ticket may only be used by the person who bought that ticket, or the person on whose behalf that ticket was bought. When a ticket is purchased on behalf of an organisation, business or similar entity, then that ticket may be used by any person employed by such entity unless otherwise shown on the ticket by means of a person’s name, photocard number or other identifying mark. In such cases it may only be used by the person so identified.

No purchaser of a ticket may resell or transfer that ticket for value to anyone else unless this has been specifically allowed by the terms and conditions which apply to that ticket, and which will be made clear when you buy your ticket.

I can see the reason for the question, as the highlighted part can easily be read as meaning this is permitted. I agree with the above posters that it is not permitted - the text states "any person" and "that ticket", both singular, implying one and only one employee may use it (the OUT and RTN sections are both parts of one ticket).

Could you cite an example of two singles being cheaper than a day return, please?

London-Oxford is easily doable for half the price of a CDR using Advances. Various XC priced flows too, though Day Returns are less common.

 

[island]

I can see the reason for the question, as the highlighted part can easily be read as meaning this is permitted. I agree with the above posters that it is not permitted - the text states "any person" and "that ticket", both singular, implying one and only one employee may use it (the OUT and RTN sections are both parts of one ticket).

Yes, exactly. A return ticket is one ticket, albeit normally issued as multiple coupons.

[Before anyone asks: I write "normally" as return tickets issued by Heathrow Express are issued as one coupon.]

 

[hassaanhc]

London-Oxford is easily doable for half the price of a CDR using Advances. Various XC priced flows too, though Day Returns are less common.

I think they meant any type of "walk-up" fare, not Advances.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Could you cite an example of two singles being cheaper than a day return, please?

Not strictly two singles, but.....

Bolton-Manchester Anytime Day Return (SDR) = £6.30

Bolton-Manchester Anytime Single (SDS) = £4.10
Manchester-Bolton Cheap Evening Return (ECR) = £1.95

Seems to apply to quite a few journeys in Greater Manchester.

Also 'open' returns to Manchester Airport from within Greater Manchester tend to be priced at twice the Anytime Day Single fare, meaning two singles are often cheaper than the return

 

[34D]

Okay. Any practical advice for this situation? One of the coach companies near an East Coast station have decided it is cheaper to send Billy south to London driving the coach, then Azram south on the train, they meet up in London, then Billy goes north on the train, and Azram completes the return coach journey.

(this is to avoid the double manning regulations).

Azram and Billy wish to keep their heads down, and not be labelled as trouble causers at work.

 

[maniacmartin]

I presume Azram and Billy are drivers of the aforementioned coach in this scenario. I admit that it is difficult when one does not want to be labelled a troublemaker at work, as some employers don't think highly think of their employees causing expense by adhering to "stupid" rules.

Can you explain the double manning regulations to us?

 

[tony_mac]

I would just use the ticket.
The regulations, on the face of it, appear to specifically allow it. It's only if you examine it in detail that you may come to some other opinion.
I can't really see anything happening, even if they were somehow 'caught' other than an 'I'll let you off this time' speech.

 

[island]

Okay. Any practical advice for this situation? One of the coach companies near an East Coast station have decided it is cheaper to send Billy south to London driving the coach, then Azram south on the train, they meet up in London, then Billy goes north on the train, and Azram completes the return coach journey.

(this is to avoid the double manning regulations).

Azram and Billy wish to keep their heads down, and not be labelled as trouble causers at work.

This forum does not advise people on how to break the law.

 

[Lee_Again]

With the exception of Stevenage, every East Coast station has Advance tickets available. Just buy 2 of these. They will almost certainly cost less than a Return ticket; even as late as the night before (evidence: I do it regularly!!).

No rules broken and it will save money. They could even buy 1st Class Advance and save money feeding them.

Do NOT break the law. And especially do not break the law for someone else, employer or not.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they're travelling EastCoast, and booking via EastCoast, then two off-peak singles will not be more expensive than an off-peak return.

I guess it depends how you interpret NRCoC 6. One interpretation is that "any person employed by [the company]" can use it, with the singular simply meaning that ticket is only valid for one person to travel at any one time ("Hi Mr Guard, it says any persons can use it, so all 47 of us are entitled to use this one ticket"). There's nothing to say it must be the same person using the full validity of that ticket. Another interpretation is that only one person can use it, and that it must be the same person for the full validity of that ticket.

The rules here are clearly written to prevent ticket touting and ticket re-selling. In reality, I don't see how the TOC would ever know, so long as the person heading outbound carried both portions of the ticket.

 

[neilmc]

I've never been asked to show the return part of an off-peak or day return whilst making the outward journey. Is this at all a likely scenario?

 

[island]

I've never been asked to show the return part of an off-peak or day return whilst making the outward journey. Is this at all a likely scenario?

It's very rare with those ticket types. A bit more common with Anytime Returns which have 5 day validity of the outbound portion and therefore some more potential for misuse.

 

[34D]

I presume Azram and Billy are drivers of the aforementioned coach in this scenario. I admit that it is difficult when one does not want to be labelled a troublemaker at work, as some employers don't think highly think of their employees causing expense by adhering to "stupid" rules.

Can you explain the double manning regulations to us?

Single manning: one driver can do max of 10 hours actual driving, spread over 15 hours from clock on to clock off.

Double manning: two drivers can each do max of 10 hours driving spread over 21 hours.

So basically the coach company concerned has decided it is cheaper to buy train tickets than pay two wages.

 

[185]

I think the general purpose of the Not Transferable Condition of Carriage for this is to ensure that a ticket does not change hands between two people trying to make the same journey, and to ensure heavily discounted season tickets are not used by multiple passengers. Over the years, all the TIRs for transferring a ticket I've completed were for people passing tickets under tables etc.

If the coach operator was Selwyns, Billy would have been told to throw the Tacho out of the window, and Azram would be told to sleep in the luggage locker.

 

[CatfordCat]

I will leave the rail ticketing angles of this to those who understand it better than I do.

What I would question is the (coach) drivers' hours and employment law angles of it.

From the employment law angle first, I would say that the travelling time (be that on train, or as a passenger in the coach they drive some of the time) would count as working hours, and therefore ought to be paid. If any of this time being unpaid puts the drivers below the legal minimum wage, they would have a case for minimum wage breach.

Also, I can't help thinking such time spent doing something because the employer wants them to (i.e. travelling) would count as part of working day for drivers hours rules. I'm inclined to think that, because they are doing what they have been told, rather than spending the time doing what they want, it would be dubious to class it as 'break' for drivers hours rules - I'd be inclined to say it's 'other work'.

I'm not entirely expert in tachograph related stuff (what PSV driving I do is 'domestic hours') but I'm aware there have been test cases involving drivers being required either to drive or travel passenger in a car to get from operating base to wherever they are taking over their coach, and what this time counts as for drivers hours purposes.

And bear in mind that both the operators' O-licence and the drivers' PCV licence/s are at risk for breaches of drivers hours.

(The above subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or police / VOSA officer)

 

[34D]

I will leave the rail ticketing angles of this to those who understand it better than I do.

What I would question is the (coach) drivers' hours and employment law angles of it.

From the employment law angle first, I would say that the travelling time (be that on train, or as a passenger in the coach they drive some of the time) would count as working hours, and therefore ought to be paid. If any of this time being unpaid puts the drivers below the legal minimum wage, they would have a case for minimum wage breach.

Also, I can't help thinking such time spent doing something because the employer wants them to (i.e. travelling) would count as part of working day for drivers hours rules. I'm inclined to think that, because they are doing what they have been told, rather than spending the time doing what they want, it would be dubious to class it as 'break' for drivers hours rules - I'd be inclined to say it's 'other work'.

I'm not entirely expert in tachograph related stuff (what PSV driving I do is 'domestic hours') but I'm aware there have been test cases involving drivers being required either to drive or travel passenger in a car to get from operating base to wherever they are taking over their coach, and what this time counts as for drivers hours purposes.

And bear in mind that both the operators' O-licence and the drivers' PCV licence/s are at risk for breaches of drivers hours.

(The above subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or police / VOSA officer)

I would define travelling on a train (or driving a company shuttle car) as a period of availability and would expect the person to be paid for either - but we're going off topic for Fares Tickets and Routeing.

 

[yorkie]

OK so 2 x Advance Singles can't be used because flexibility is required.

Officially, a Super Off Peak Return can't be shared between two people.

As Arctic Troll says, East Coast price 2 x Super Off Peak Singles as (roughly) the same price as a Super Off Peak Return (providing the purchase is made on the EC website by 2359 the day before travel). So problem solved!
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I've never been asked to show the return part of an off-peak or day return whilst making the outward journey. Is this at all a likely scenario?

It is only likely if you make (or resume) the outward journey on subsequent day after the first day of validity.