"Computer [or other bureaucracy] says no"

[py_megapixel]

I had an interesting experience in Greggs the other day when I ordered a decaffeinated latte. The member of staff apologised that they were not allowed to make decaff lattes, but could make me a caffeinated latte or a decaff americano! I didn't probe further, but this sounds an awful lot to me like one of those "computer says no" situations (the code for a decaff latte is not in their till system, or something).

And these situations seem increasingly common - something entirely possible can't be done because "the system" (usually meaning some awful proprietary computer system) can't handle it. Any other similar experiences?

 

[WelshBluebird]

And these situations seem increasingly common - something entirely possible can't be done because "the system" (usually meaning some awful proprietary computer system) can't handle it. Any other similar experiences?

A lot of the time this isn't actually "computer says no", it is more like "company policy says no" (and any computer system involved would have been built to match company policy).

And I guess sometimes it isn't "official" company policy that is the issue but unofficial policies or training issues. As a good example for this forum - the number of times railway staff get ticketing rules wrong - that often isn't "computer says no" or "official company policy says no" - its more either "unofficial internal company policy says no" or "member of staff says no" or "training said no".

 

[pdeaves]

In the more general case, I wonder if it's often (not always, granted) "I say no because I don't know how to do it". So "computer says no" only because I haven't told it the right thing yet.

 

[DarloRich]

it may well be the machine used to make coffee doesn't make decaffe latte (because everything is powdered) rather than any vast conspiracy

 

[Ianno87]

it may well be the machine used to make coffee doesn't make decaffe latte (because everything is powdered) rather than any vast conspiracy

Yes, the coffee in Greggs is just a machine with pre-set buttons. They simply don't output anything "nonstandard" like Starbucks or Costa can. That's what you get for the £1.80 or whatever.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, the coffee in Greggs is just a machine with pre-set buttons. They simply don't output anything "nonstandard" like Starbucks or Costa can. That's what you get for the £1.80 or whatever.

and a donut!

Greggs is superb. Anyway, if you are drinking decaffe you may as well have hot water - which the machine wont issue either!

 

[lkpridgeon]

and a donut!

Greggs is superb. Anyway, if you are drinking decaffe you may as well have hot water - which the machine wont issue either!

Tea without the teabag should achieve that aim at least.

I had an interesting experience in Greggs the other day when I ordered a decaffeinated latte. The member of staff apologised that they were not allowed to make decaff lattes, but could make me a caffeinated latte or a decaff americano! I didn't probe further, but this sounds an awful lot to me like one of those "computer says no" situations (the code for a decaff latte is not in their till system, or something).

And these situations seem increasingly common - something entirely possible can't be done because "the system" (usually meaning some awful proprietary computer system) can't handle it. Any other similar experiences?

If it isn't in the till system they won't be able to do it as it affects stock taking/reconciliation. This allows stock to be controlled centrally in real time (Just in Time delivery). Unfortunately for this to work staff will be told to stick to what's on the menu so won't be allowed to flex even if the machine could do it.

It's very common to no longer be flexible in a lot of shops/restaurants/cafes because of this. A good example is I was once charged for both a sausage and a bacon bap at a cafe because their EPoS (Electronic Point of Sale System) didn't have the option to add/remove components from a menu item.

Ultimately centralised ordering and stock management reduces overheads considerably however ultimately leads to less flexibility and "computer says no"-itus

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One that I encountered for the first time yesterday: Northern's ticket machines in West Yorkshire allow the topping up of MCards. A friend of mine is starting a new job so I've lent him my card (which has been dormant for over a year). I accompanied him to the station to show him how to top them up, only to find that the bus only version he requires understandably can't be bought that way. Given his circumstances, he can't get to a Travel Centre during their opening hours so his only option would be a PayZone shop.

My own experience of that approach is that chances are the shop assistant won't have a clue what you're on about, nor how to do it correctly, so he's had to pay an extra £30 for Z2-6 rail validity that he won't (and indeed can't) use.
Perhaps WYITA should take over responsibility for the machines in their area, and enable purchase of all variants.

 

[PeterC]

I had that problem in Tesco many years ago. A product that I bought regularly was deranged but not removed from the shelf. The cashier refused to sell it ad the barcode couldn't be scanned. I went back a fortnight later and it was still on the shelf.

 

[skyhigh]

One that I encountered for the first time yesterday: Northern's ticket machines in West Yorkshire allow the topping up of MCards. A friend of mine is starting a new job so I've lent him my card (which has been dormant for over a year). I accompanied him to the station to show him how to top them up, only to find that the bus only version he requires understandably can't be bought that way. Given his circumstances, he can't get to a Travel Centre during their opening hours so his only option would be a PayZone shop.

My own experience of that approach is that chances are the shop assistant won't have a clue what you're on about, nor how to do it correctly, so he's had to pay an extra £30 for Z2-6 rail validity that he won't (and indeed can't) use.
Perhaps WYITA should take over responsibility for the machines in their area, and enable purchase of all variants.

Off topic, but if they have a smartphone buying a ticket on the MCard app is probably a better solution for that. You can buy either a mobile ticket, or load the bus only version onto one of their smartcards.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Off topic, but if they have a smartphone buying a ticket on the MCard app is probably a better solution for that. You can buy either a mobile ticket, or load the bus only version onto one of their smartcards.

Thanks, I'll suggest that next time, it'll save him a trip into town on a Saturday!

 

[NorthOxonian]

I had an interesting experience in Greggs the other day when I ordered a decaffeinated latte. The member of staff apologised that they were not allowed to make decaff lattes, but could make me a caffeinated latte or a decaff americano! I didn't probe further, but this sounds an awful lot to me like one of those "computer says no" situations (the code for a decaff latte is not in their till system, or something).

And these situations seem increasingly common - something entirely possible can't be done because "the system" (usually meaning some awful proprietary computer system) can't handle it. Any other similar experiences?

That's really strange - a couple of weeks ago I asked for the exact same thing (a decaf latte) at a Greggs and it was fine - the person taking my order didn't even bat an eyelid!

Presumably there are either different computer systems at different outlets, or the Greggs I visited have staff willing to overrule the system.

 

[Welly]

I had that problem in Tesco many years ago. A product that I bought regularly was deranged but not removed from the shelf. The cashier refused to sell it ad the barcode couldn't be scanned. I went back a fortnight later and it was still on the shelf.

No suprise that it is still on the shelf!

 

[ComUtoR]

I spent an evening in London with my Sister and I really had a hankering for a White Russian. Stopped in the first bar (yes it was a cocktail bar). Nope, we can only order whats on the menu. Second bar, same story. After a wander and a chat I decided that our next bar of choice would be one that served me my cocktail of choice. Various bars later and still no joy; until.. A nice lady at the door of one bar went and asked the Bartender if he was willing to make us one even though it wasn't on the menu. He did and we remained there for the rest of the evening and much was imbibed. Considering this was during the early stages of Covid and bars were closing left, right and centre I was surprised nobody was accomodating.

TBH it is a common experience. If its not on the menu, generally you can't have it.

One of my weirdest experiences was in a local chippie. The woman refused to sell me a handful of chips :/ All I wanted was enough for a chip buttie and I even said she could charge me full price. I told her I only wanted a handfull because the rest would go in the bin so it would save her some chips and save the waste. Again, no joy, so I left.

 

[Busaholic]

I had that problem in Tesco many years ago. A product that I bought regularly was deranged but not removed from the shelf. The cashier refused to sell it ad the barcode couldn't be scanned. I went back a fortnight later and it was still on the shelf.

In Morrisons, at self service till, the acting manager told me to put it straight into my bag by-passing the shelf! Sainsbury used to have this policy too, but now refuse to sell it to you or just give it to you.

 

[PeterC]

In Morrisons, at self service till, the acting manager told me to put it straight into my bag by-passing the shelf! Sainsbury used to have this policy too, but now refuse to sell it to you or just give it to you.

One supermarket I know had stock control problems at some stores. On investigation they found that cashiers were just over-riding the scanners and hitting a button for generic, over the counter, bakery products if something didn't scan. (I can't name it, my firm had a contract there)

When you are basing your re-orders on what the tills say is sold this can become a major issue.

 

[py_megapixel]

When you are basing your re-orders on what the tills say is sold this can become a major issue.

Were they over-ordering the bakery products as well then?

 

[RuralRambler]

I had that problem in Tesco many years ago. A product that I bought regularly was deranged but not removed from the shelf. The cashier refused to sell it ad the barcode couldn't be scanned. I went back a fortnight later and it was still on the shelf.

I had similar once, many years ago in Focus DIY. I wanted a dremmel set. I phoned up the store to ask if they had one in stock. They checked their computer and said yes. So I went down. None on the shelves. So I asked at the counter, who checked the stock, yes, they had one in stock. Turned out the stock item was in the display cabinet. So I asked if I could have that, answer was no, they couldn't sell items from the display cabinet. So I asked when they'd have more in stock and told they had deliveries every few days, so to try again in a week or two. Which I did. I phoned, and they said, yes, they had one in stock. Rather than being caught out, I asked if they could confirm there was one available to buy - she went away, came back and said no, none on the shelf. This went on for a few weeks. Then I asked if I could order one, to be told, no, they don't take orders for tools, only for things like wallpaper, paint etc. I then asked about whether there were any in their warehouse at all, so they checked, and yes, plenty in the warehouse, so was told just a matter of time before some were delivered to store. And it went on a few more weeks. Then I twigged. I asked what their computer had the re-order level set to - they answered it was 1. So, whilst they had 1 on display, they were never going to get new stocks. In the end, I gave up and got one elsewhere. Just shows how tech used badly can do more harm than good.

 

[ComUtoR]

One supermarket I know had stock control problems at some stores. On investigation they found that cashiers were just over-riding the scanners and hitting a button for generic, over the counter, bakery products if something didn't scan. (I can't name it, my firm had a contract there)

When you are basing your re-orders on what the tills say is sold this can become a major issue.

This is more of a staff training issue than a flaw in the auto-replen system. It should also be flagged up by 'the system' as regular audit roll and epos checks should highlight any dept code that is overused. Regular 'generic' department scans should be flagged up as a matter of course due to security concerns. Going back to the origional point of 'computer says no'; having strict control over anything that goes through the till on a generic code or anything that would break the auto-replen does make staff more reticent to allow flexibility. There should also be regular delivery checks to see if stock is being replenished. There are tools; such as 'event counting' that are there to aid the system and any decent Manager should be on top of these to keep the stock at the correct level, and/or to keep sales up.

Then I twigged. I asked what their computer had the re-order level set to - they answered it was 1. So, whilst they had 1 on display, they were never going to get new stocks.

This is slightly misleading. Re-order might be set to trigger once stock levels reach 1 so having 1 would have triggered a new delivery. You can also write off the display stock so that it doesn't ever form part of the stock level. One store I used to work at used to code out the stock to 'VM' (visual merchandising) so that the store level was maintained. What is most common, and probably happened in this case, is that the stock level isn't correct.

Stock management can be pretty complex and there are various 'fun' ways to game the system but on the whole, auto-replen works quite well.

 

[GusB]

I had that problem in Tesco many years ago. A product that I bought regularly was deranged but not removed from the shelf. The cashier refused to sell it ad the barcode couldn't be scanned. I went back a fortnight later and it was still on the shelf.

I found that quite often a product would be de-listed, but not de-listed! In fact what had actually changed was the barcode on the packaging; sometimes it was due to a slight change in the quantity contained therein, it could be that it was a special price-marked pack or occasionally they just changed the barcode for the hell of it without any apparent change to the product! I don't know what Tesco's procedure is for such occasions, but our policy (Safeway) was to send someone to the shelf to check the price, ring it through the till as a general grocery item (or whatever department it came from) and the barcode was noted and the item recorded on a form which the stock management team would process later to ensure the inventory was correct. The admin team dealt with getting the product file details amended.

One supermarket I know had stock control problems at some stores. On investigation they found that cashiers were just over-riding the scanners and hitting a button for generic, over the counter, bakery products if something didn't scan. (I can't name it, my firm had a contract there)

As @ComUtoR has explained, this is usually cashier error, but not always. Back in the days before reduced to clear (RTC) items had specially printed barcodes, we had a red barcode label which was placed over the main barcode and a "from/to" Reduced price sticker was placed to indicate the reduction. Once the item reached the till, the red barcode was scanned (telling the system that the item was RTC) and the middle section peeled off, the reduced price was keyed in and then the actual product barcode was scanned to tell the system what the item was. It wasn't too bad if there were only one or two RTC items in the trolley, but I've lost count of the number of times my heart sank when the entire conveyor belt was covered in red stickers, especially in the run-up to closing time!

Some cashiers were guilty of simply keying in price then hitting the relevant department button, but there'd be a stern telling off if we were caught doing it. The only time it was really permitted was when the original barcode had become smudged (frequent with in-store printed barcodes on chilled goods) and the number was illegible too. Sometimes those doing the price reductions put the red stickers round the wrong way so that the code underneath couldn't be read.

Bakery barcodes were notorious for their failure to scan, and I seem to remember that were given a list of PLU (price look-up) codes to use instead - far more efficient.

Stock management can be pretty complex and there are various 'fun' ways to game the system but on the whole, auto-replen works quite well.

Oh yes, it can be pretty complex and made all the more difficult when you have management and supervisors who don't fully understand how it works. When I started with the Co-op we had a massive overstock problem and there was no room to move in the warehouse. It turned out that nobody had been doing stock counts properly. On the other hand, some lines were running out completely and we had gaps on the shelves; it turned out that every line in the store had a minimum shelf level of two items... It was immensely satisfying to be able to sort that out!

 

[gg1]

I spent an evening in London with my Sister and I really had a hankering for a White Russian. Stopped in the first bar (yes it was a cocktail bar). Nope, we can only order whats on the menu. Second bar, same story. After a wander and a chat I decided that our next bar of choice would be one that served me my cocktail of choice. Various bars later and still no joy; until.. A nice lady at the door of one bar went and asked the Bartender if he was willing to make us one even though it wasn't on the menu. He did and we remained there for the rest of the evening and much was imbibed. Considering this was during the early stages of Covid and bars were closing left, right and centre I was surprised nobody was accomodating.

I've had that before with cocktails, always struck me as very silly. One I love is Tennessee Iced Tea, which is basically Long Island Iced Tea but with Jack Daniels instead of Tequila, I've asked for it a few times at bars which have Long Island Iced Tea on the menu, most said no with one saying they would do it but quoted a ridiculous price (over 50% more than a Long Island Iced tea IIRC).

 

[DelayRepay]

I was told I could not have scrambled eggs on toast for breakfast, despite the cafe having both scrambled eggs, and toast. No button on the till for scrambled eggs on toast. There used to be, but it was removed when they started serving a reduced menu due to Covid.

Some cashiers were guilty of simply keying in price then hitting the relevant department button, but there'd be a stern telling off if we were caught doing it. The only time it was really permitted was when the original barcode had become smudged (frequent with in-store printed barcodes on chilled goods) and the number was illegible too. Sometimes those doing the price reductions put the red stickers round the wrong way so that the code underneath couldn't be read.

I remember when I worked in a supermarket, the managers did not like us using what was known as the 'dump button'. Apparently everything sold through that button was treated as being subject to VAT, so the store paid more VAT than necessary. However, the management also did not like queues at the checkouts, and use of the dump button was a way to save time sending someone to find another item with a working barcode.

We also had a policy that at very busy times, if an item would not scan and the price was unknown, we could just ask the customer how much they wanted to pay for it!

 

[Ianno87]

Reminds be being out in town, and my wife suddenly felt a bit dizzy. Her suggestion to help her feel OK was to buy a ice cream cone (just the cone, not any ice cream) off a nearby ice cream seller to eat for some sugar. I was told he couldn't just sell me a cone, even though I would've happily paid the full price for an ice cream, just without the ice cream itself.

 

[DarloRich]

TBH it is a common experience. If its not on the menu, generally you can't have it.

That is about training and employing people who know their job and also a bit of stock control policy

 

[johntea]

One that I encountered for the first time yesterday: Northern's ticket machines in West Yorkshire allow the topping up of MCards. A friend of mine is starting a new job so I've lent him my card (which has been dormant for over a year). I accompanied him to the station to show him how to top them up, only to find that the bus only version he requires understandably can't be bought that way. Given his circumstances, he can't get to a Travel Centre during their opening hours so his only option would be a PayZone shop.

My own experience of that approach is that chances are the shop assistant won't have a clue what you're on about, nor how to do it correctly, so he's had to pay an extra £30 for Z2-6 rail validity that he won't (and indeed can't) use.
Perhaps WYITA should take over responsibility for the machines in their area, and enable purchase of all variants.

One thing that drove me mad about MCard is they offer a Zone 6 / 7 (Harrogate / Skipton) rail extension product and have done so for years but apparently it is not classed as a MCard product (doesn’t include bus travel)

So you had to buy a paper ticket at a staffed rail station, renew it at a staffed rail station, get it replaced at a staffed rail station regularly as the mag stripe wore out in regular barrier use…and the staff often struggled to even know the process as according to one I spoke to they don’t sell them very often and they’re quite hidden away in the menus!

Would be so much easier if they could just be loaded on a MCard like every other product!

 

[87 027]

The food related stories above remind me of a listener's tale as told on the Sarah Kennedy early morning show on Radio 2 back in the day. A customer at a motorway service station wanting breakfast duly put bacon, eggs, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc. on their plate. However when they came to pay they were surprised to be charged for each item individually rather than the special deal advertised for a full English breakfast. The following dialogue ensued:

Customer: "I've got bacon, egg, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc - please can you tell me what disqualifies this from being considered a full English breakfast?"
Cashier: "You haven't got a sausage."
Customer: "But I don't like sausages."
Cashier: "If you haven't got a sausage it isn't a full English breakfast."

So the customer went back to the food counter, picked up the required sausage, put it on their plate, went back to the same till and was duly charged the discounted price for a full English breakfast.

Then, just as they were walking away, the customer picked up the sausage, stuffed it into the cashier's front shirt pocket, and (reading his name badge) said "there you go Terence. Enjoy your sausage!"

 

[Busaholic]

The food related stories above remind me of a listener's tale as told on the Sarah Kennedy early morning show on Radio 2 back in the day. A customer at a motorway service station wanting breakfast duly put bacon, eggs, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc. on their plate. However when they came to pay they were surprised to be charged for each item individually rather than the special deal advertised for a full English breakfast. The following dialogue ensued:

Customer: "I've got bacon, egg, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc - please can you tell me what disqualifies this from being considered a full English breakfast?"
Cashier: "You haven't got a sausage."
Customer: "But I don't like sausages."
Cashier: "If you haven't got a sausage it isn't a full English breakfast."

So the customer went back to the food counter, picked up the required sausage, put it on their plate, went back to the same till and was duly charged the discounted price for a full English breakfast.

Then, just as they were walking away, the customer picked up the sausage, stuffed it into the cashier's front shirt pocket, and (reading his name badge) said "there you go Terence. Enjoy your sausage!"

My local co-op used to sell an item that was £1.75 individually, but 3 for £2. On this occasion there were only two on the shelf, but that was all I wanted. I was duly charged £3.50: when I demurred I was told the discount could not be applied without three scans of the same barcode. I suggested one of the items could be scanned twice, but you'd have thought I'd proposed killing his grandmother! I managed without the item for another day, before I bought it elsewhere.

 

[DelayRepay]

The food related stories above remind me of a listener's tale as told on the Sarah Kennedy early morning show on Radio 2 back in the day. A customer at a motorway service station wanting breakfast duly put bacon, eggs, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc. on their plate. However when they came to pay they were surprised to be charged for each item individually rather than the special deal advertised for a full English breakfast. The following dialogue ensued:

Customer: "I've got bacon, egg, beans, mushrooms, tomatoes, hash browns, toast etc - please can you tell me what disqualifies this from being considered a full English breakfast?"
Cashier: "You haven't got a sausage."
Customer: "But I don't like sausages."
Cashier: "If you haven't got a sausage it isn't a full English breakfast."

So the customer went back to the food counter, picked up the required sausage, put it on their plate, went back to the same till and was duly charged the discounted price for a full English breakfast.

Then, just as they were walking away, the customer picked up the sausage, stuffed it into the cashier's front shirt pocket, and (reading his name badge) said "there you go Terence. Enjoy your sausage!"

That reminds me of a similar experience in a Tesco cafe, quite a few years ago.

I don't like tomato, so I asked for a breakfast without tomato.

"We don't allow swaps", she said
"I don't want a swap, I just don't want a tomato"
"You don't get a discount"
"I don't want a discount, I just don't want a tomato"
"You have to have a tomato, it comes as part of the breakfast"

I accepted the tomato, and threw it in the bin. I hate wasting food though.

 

[Busaholic]

That reminds me of a similar experience in a Tesco cafe, quite a few years ago.

I don't like tomato, so I asked for a breakfast without tomato.

"We don't allow swaps", she said
"I don't want a swap, I just don't want a tomato"
"You don't get a discount"
"I don't want a discount, I just don't want a tomato"
"You have to have a tomato, it comes as part of the breakfast"

I accepted the tomato, and threw it in the bin. I hate wasting food though.

I'm the same with baked beans, but to the point that I'm not prepared to eat food that's been on the same plate as b.b. I always make the point of saying 'no beans' but don't always succeed, first time. If offered an alternative I'll ALWAYS accept cos then the beans are left off!