Concerns over Heathrow Express

[swt class 450]

I definitely think we should completely replace the Heathrow Express with Crossrail. They could run 8 trains per hour to Heathrow Airport (with four going to T4 and four going to T5). In the future (as Heathrow Airport keeps getting busier every year) this could be increased to 12 trains per hour to Heathrow Airport (with six going to T4 and six going to T5).

Crossrail will be very convenient seeing as it is going right through to Central London where many people will be staying and offers far more connections (and best of all it will be far cheaper than the Heathrow Express is). And it will still be a good convinient option for those who are just going to London Paddington station. I know Crossrail will get very overcrowded in the peak times (which is really their fault for not using 12 coach trains) but i don't think tourists will mind busy trains or standing. It is certainly not a long journey.

The Heathrow Express (and the Gatwick Express as well) is just for extremely rich business people who have huge amounts money to throw away or for tourists who are misled and are unaware about the cheaper options that are available.

The Heathrow Connect and the Piccadilly Line are extremely poorly publicised at Heathrow Airport. The Heathrow Connect is by far the most hidden and poorly publicised railway service in the UK. And then the Heathrow Express staff are some of the most incompetent useless staff i have seen (almost as bad as the Gatwick Express Red Gestapo staff). I have seen them make up so many lies to tourists in order to ger them to pay for the Heathrow Express. They will try to pretend that the Heathrow Express is the only public transport to serve Heathrow Airport and will do everything they can to scam tourists in to using the Heathrow Express instead of the cheaper and better value Heathrow Connect or Piccadilly Line services.

The Heathrow Connect only takes around 8 to 14 minutes longer (depending on which journey) but is much cheaper (and in my opinion the 360s are much nicer to travel on then the 332s as well). So if more passengers were actually aware that the Heathrow Connect existed then i am sure that most people would use the Heathrow Connect rather than the Heathrow Express. Similarly the Piccadilly Line does take longer (around 40 to 60 minutes depending where in Central London you are going) but is still very convenient and even more cheaper. So i am sure if people were aware of it then lots of people would take the Piccadilly Line instead as well.

The sooner we get rid of the Heathrow Express the better.

 

[Taunton]

The Heathrow Connect and the Piccadilly Line are extremely poorly publicised at Heathrow Airport. The Heathrow Connect is by far the most hidden and poorly publicised railway service in the UK. And then the Heathrow Express staff are some of the most incompetent useless staff I have seen (almost as bad as the Gatwick Express Red Gestapo staff). I have seen them make up so many lies to tourists in order to get them to pay for the Heathrow Express. They will try to pretend that the Heathrow Express is the only public transport to serve Heathrow Airport and will do everything they can to scam tourists in to using the Heathrow Express instead of the cheaper and better value Heathrow Connect or Piccadilly Line services.

Well said and quite true.

I have seen some dreadful attempts by HEx staff to defraud me and others. One is that they have uniformed ticket touts INSIDE the international arrivals corridor, before you come out, who pretend that HEx is the only rail service into London and want to sell tickets for it on the spot. Those with poorer English are their especial prey.

I asked one 5 tout how I could get to Hyde Park Corner, he started to push a HEx ticket into my hand and said taxi or bus from Paddington. I responded why not the Piccadilly Line directly from here, much more frequent, direct, a fraction of the price, etc. He just poo-pooed me away

Then when 5 opened, at the Piccadilly Line Underground station the station staff there are actually HEx employees, who work in bland unbadged uniforms and you would think they were Underground staff. But no. Once I arrived at 5, the Piccadilly section from 5 to 123 was suspended due to some failure. They were telling everyone the only thing they could now do was get the HEx to Paddington. I asked (loudly) why we could not take the (free) HEx to 123 and change to the Underground there, which was advertised by notice as still running. None of the staff I put this to would say one word back to me, they were obviously under strict instructions to only refer people to the HEx.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well said and quite true.

I have seen some dreadful attempts by HEx staff to defraud me and others. One is that they have uniformed ticket touts INSIDE the international arrivals corridor, before you come out, who pretend that HEx is the only rail service into London and want to sell tickets for it on the spot. Those with poorer English are their especial prey.

I asked one 5 tout how I could get to Hyde Park Corner, he started to push a HEx ticket into my hand and said taxi or bus from Paddington. I responded why not the Piccadilly Line directly from here, much more frequent, direct, a fraction of the price, etc. He just poo-pooed me away

Then when 5 opened, at the Piccadilly Line Underground station the station staff there are actually HEx employees, who work in bland unbadged uniforms and you would think they were Underground staff. But no. Once I arrived at 5, the Piccadilly section from 5 to 123 was suspended due to some failure. They were telling everyone the only thing they could now do was get the HEx to Paddington. I asked (loudly) why we could not take the (free) HEx to 123 and change to the Underground there, which was advertised by notice as still running. None of the staff I put this to would say one word back to me, they were obviously under strict instructions to only refer people to the HEx.

As contractors of first group for the heathrow connect service first should realy be fined for lack of impartial retailing

 

[Taunton]

I understand that HEx are only contractors to First, and thus to the franchised railway, for the Paddington to Hayes section. From there to Heathrow I understand is not the public railway and just a commercial operation by Heathrow airport. It has as little to do with public service obligations as the Talyllyn does.

 

[JaJaWa]

As contractors of first group for the heathrow connect service first should realy be fined for lack of impartial retailing

Why? First don't have anything to do with Heathrow Express. Neither Heathrow Connect between the Airport and Hayes, or Heathrow Express on the whole route are part of National Rail.

 

[Tom m]

I definitely think we should completely replace the Heathrow Express with Crossrail. They could run 8 trains per hour to Heathrow Airport (with four going to T4 and four going to T5). In the future (as Heathrow Airport keeps getting busier every year) this could be increased to 12 trains per hour to Heathrow Airport (with six going to T4 and six going to T5).

The sooner we get rid of the Heathrow Express the better.

Good luck getting 12tph through the single bore tunnel between CTA and T4.

As others have already said, between Hayes and Heathrow it's a private enterprise and not bound by the same rules as the rest of the rail network. At the end of the day Heathrow are always going to protect their interests in this area and push the hex.

Can't say i agree with what individuals have reported takes place, I believe the sellers that are in the arrivals area are on commission which can be a big motivation, but does not make deception acceptable

 

[berneyarms]

The Heathrow Express (and the Gatwick Express as well) is just for extremely rich business people who have huge amounts money to throw away or for tourists who are misled and are unaware about the cheaper options that are available.

What a ridiculous statement about Heathrow Express.

I've frequently used the Heathrow Express using advance fares, and indeed on other occasions a normal ticket when using Heathrow Airport on leisure trips. I am far from being an extremely rich business person or someone with money to throw away.

It depends upon the time I'm travelling, how much time I've got to get to the airport, and how much luggage I've got.

Try using the Heathrow Connect with several bags during the evening peak to Heathrow - it gets absolutely jammed and is not suited to being used with several bags. You have similar issues with the Underground.

I would generally use the HEx going to the Airport for my trip home as that is when my time is most critical on a leisure trip and knowing that it leaves every 15 minutes and will take 15 minutes means it is an attractive option. I can buy an advance ticket from £5.50 for weekend travel - most leisure trips by air would have a certain degree of advance planning and advance tickets are a viable option. They are only date specific rather than specific departures.

While I agree with your view about the ticket sales approach at Heathrow, I think you're making very broad and uninformed assumptions about passengers using the service. It is useful, it has large luggage space, and the journey time and regularity make it an attractive product.

Now Gatwick Express is an entirely different issue...

 

[glbotu]

I think it's seen as acceptable for airports to hugely prioritise their express services, however many alternatives there are. Both Fiumicino in Rome and Arlanda in Stockholm make the expensive Airport Express VERY visible, while playing down the local Regional/S-Bahn service. From a transport strategy perspective, while that could be seen as short sighted, it could also be seen as useful to get a decent proportion of people off of services used by local people. Those who are in the know use the local, cheaper services, the tourists (and rich business people) get put onto the expresses, thus saving capacity. Sure, where capacity is at a premium, that becomes questionable (*SNEEZE*GATWICK*SNEEZE), but it makes sense in a lot of situations.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Heathrow Express (and the Gatwick Express as well) is just for extremely rich business people who have huge amounts money to throw away or for tourists who are misled and are unaware about the cheaper options that are available.

I'm neither rich nor stupid, and generally use the Heathrow Express when I go to Heathrow. When I'm flying from Heathrow I've spent hundreds, if not thousands, on my trip and I'm not going to sit on a cramped and overcrowded Piccadilly Line train for an hour to save myself a tenner. Life's too short.

 

[Taunton]

An hour to Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line would be starting from Kings Cross, with trains every few minutes.

If you trundle on the H&C from Kings Cross to Paddington, walk over to the HEx, wait up to 15 minutes for the next departure (because the previous one will typically go while you are trying to buy a ticket), etc. It's much the same time. But not the same money.

The poor location of Paddington will really count against it when Crossrail starts to serve, directly, the West End, the City, and Canary Wharf. Paddington is in London W2, which is not normally regarded as a central London postcode, and indeed there was an Advertising Standards Agency challenge about HEx saying that it was.

 

[berneyarms]

An hour to Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line would be starting from Kings Cross, with trains every few minutes.

If you trundle on the H&C from Kings Cross to Paddington, walk over to the HEx, wait up to 15 minutes for the next departure (because the previous one will typically go while you are trying to buy a ticket), etc. It's much the same time. But not the same money.

The poor location of Paddington will really count against it when Crossrail starts to serve, directly, the West End, the City, and Canary Wharf. Paddington is in London W2, which is not normally regarded as a central London postcode, and indeed there was an Advertising Standards Agency challenge about HEx saying that it was.

I don't think it's unreasonable to describe anywhere within Zone 1 as being in central London in terms of travel surely, and in Paddington's case given the large number of hotels in the area which would also use that description I don't think it unreasonable in this case?

People are going to be travelling to points all over from Paddington and inevitably some people will prefer Crossrail - we will have to wait and see what happens to travel patterns once the service launches.

That's also a very sweeping statement to say that a train is typically going to depart while you're purchasing a ticket. That's a nonsense to be honest unless you have actual data to prove it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

An hour to Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line would be starting from Kings Cross, with trains every few minutes.

If you trundle on the H&C from Kings Cross to Paddington, walk over to the HEx, wait up to 15 minutes for the next departure (because the previous one will typically go while you are trying to buy a ticket), etc. It's much the same time. But not the same money.

Well I was normally going from Kings Cross/Angel area.

It is the same time, but I can spend that hour squashed on to a noisy, hot and overcrowded Piccadilly Line train or I can spend that time on a more comfortable tube train and HEx train, stopping to buy a snack or a drink if I just miss a HEx. I value my comfort at £12 an hour (HEx is £15 single booked the day before) and when I've dropped £500 on my plane ticket I'm not going to sweat about a tenner.

If I'm in time for the Connect I'll sometimes take that instead, but really I couldn't be chewed with the tube. Ironically the one time I did need to take the tube because I was skint there was a train failure at Hounslow so I ended up on the Connect anyway.

It'll be interesting to see what Crossrail brings. Given that Heathrow control fares from Heathrow to Hayes, I can imagine a very steep premium being applied on that journey if everyone moves to Crossrail.

 

[Taunton]

I doubt that the HEx/Connect arrangements will last to Crossrail opening. The HEx 25 year concession on NR tracks runs out in 2023, and Heathrow are keen to get government support for expansion. The cards are all with the DfT, and to an extent TfL. HEx is perceived as having given an overpriced service to Londoners, and they will not be allowed to get away with that again. Crossrail will fillet much of their market anyway. Every recent decision by the regulatory/competition authorities (Heathrow contribution to Crossrail etc, access charges to Heathrow for Crossrail, etc) has gone against Heathrow.

I expect that there will, shortly before opening, be a "buy out" of the HEx/Connect arrangements by Crossrail. Setting a price will be interesting.

Regarding any inadequacy of the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow, I remember how brilliant it seemed when it opened in the late 1970s compared to the old bus access. Everything is relative.

 

[matt_world2004]

m
It'll be interesting to see what Crossrail brings. Given that Heathrow control fares from Heathrow to Hayes, I can imagine a very steep premium being applied on that journey if everyone moves to Crossrail.

They won't when crossrail comes in both tfl and Heathrow went to arbitration about it

 

[matt_world2004]

I doubt that the HEx/Connect arrangements will last to Crossrail opening. The HEx 25 year concession on NR tracks runs out in 2023, and Heathrow are keen to get government support for expansion. The cards are all with the DfT, and to an extent TfL. HEx is perceived as having given an overpriced service to Londoners, and they will not be allowed to get away with that again. Crossrail will fillet much of their market anyway. Every recent decision by the regulatory/competition authorities (Heathrow contribution to Crossrail etc, access charges to Heathrow for Crossrail, etc) has gone against Heathrow.

I expect that there will, shortly before opening, be a "buy out" of the HEx/Connect arrangements by Crossrail. Setting a price will be interesting.

Regarding any inadequacy of the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow, I remember how brilliant it seemed when it opened in the late 1970s compared to the old bus access. Everything is relative.

Even when you factor in inflation the Hex is only marginally cheaper than the airlink helicopter service that ran between Heathrow and Gatwick.Even worse with inflation included the airlink helicopter service works out at half the price of a train ticket between Gatwick and Heathrow

 

[coppercapped]

HEx is perceived as having given an overpriced service to Londoners,

The 60 million people it has carried since it opened disagree with you.

 

[swt class 450]

The 60 million people it has carried since it opened disagree with you.

The vast majority of those 60 million people have probably been scammed in to using the Heathrow Express due to the fact that the cheaper Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services are very hidden and poorly publicised.

 

[coppercapped]

The vast majority of those 60 million people have probably been scammed in to using the Heathrow Express due to the fact that the cheaper Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services are very hidden and poorly publicised.

Maybe, just maybe, it satisfies a need...

(The Piccadilly Line is on every Tube map and most foreign travellers arriving at Heathrow will either have one or have seen one. Connect's only advantage is that it's cheaper than HEx - it only runs every 30 minutes and still only takes you to Paddington where, apparently, nobody wants to go as there is nothing there. If you have just spent several hundred quid on an air fare and will spend another couple of hundred on hotels in London you really are not going to worry about an extra fiver. Get real.)

 

[berneyarms]

The vast majority of those 60 million people have probably been scammed in to using the Heathrow Express due to the fact that the cheaper Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services are very hidden and poorly publicised.

Please stop this nonsense.

While I agree Heathrow Connect is not as well known, suggesting that people don't know about the tube is stretching credibility.

And there are plenty of cheap advance fares available for HEx and many air travellers won't necessarily share your distaste for advance fares.

People are well able to make their own choices and suggesting that most HEx passengers use the service because they have been scammed is just rubbish.

By your own admission you've never flown anywhere - if you had you might just appreciate how travelling on a dedicated express train after a long flight would be preferable to a busy commuter service such as the Piccadilly Line.

Stop applying your own prejudices to everyone else.

 

[Kite159]

The vast majority of those 60 million people have probably been scammed in to using the Heathrow Express due to the fact that the cheaper Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services are very hidden and poorly publicised.

:roll:

Or maybe because they want to use a quality service to reach Heathrow rather than cramping onto the Piccadilly line with commuters heading back towards Acton/the West of London. Booking in advance to pretty much be sure of a seat, having time to board, and even during the summer having AC to keep cool.

The ultra-tight wouldn't even bother with the Piccadilly Line, instead they would use a bus

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe, just maybe, it satisfies a need...

(The Piccadilly Line is on every Tube map and most foreign travellers arriving at Heathrow will either have one or have seen one. Connect's only advantage is that it's cheaper than HEx - it only runs every 30 minutes and still only takes you to Paddington where, apparently, nobody wants to go as there is nothing there. If you have just spent several hundred quid on an air fare and will spend another couple of hundred on hotels in London you really are not going to worry about an extra fiver. Get real.)

It is not on the tube map that the heathrow express staff hand out. The heathrow express is though. Cropping a tube map to deliberately omit the heathrow branch of the picadilly is bordering on scam territory. People will pick up a map and assume that is the tube map there is no disclaimer saying the map only covers central London no arrows indicating where the cropped lines go .

 

[coppercapped]

It is not on the tube map that the heathrow express staff hand out. The heathrow express is though

Never heard of 'The Internet' huh?

 

[matt_world2004]

Never heard of 'The Internet' huh?

Plenty of warning about different scams/ rip offs on the internet and that doesnt make them suddenly morally right
*Cropping a tube map to deliberately omit the heathrow branch of the picadilly is bordering on scam territory. People will pick up a map and assume that is the tube map there is no disclaimer saying the map only covers central London no arrows indicating where the cropped lines go

 

[swt class 450]

I am sure there are lots of people out there (including those who travel on airplanes) who want to save money. The Heathrow Connect only takes 8 to 12 minutes longer than the Heathrow Express to get to London Paddington. The Heathrow Express is over double the cost of the Heathrow Connect. So if someone wants to travel on a fast quick train to London Paddington then they would almost certainly take the Heathrow Connect services if they knew about them. Most people will not mind that it only takes 8 to 12 minutes longer. And i know it only runs every 30 minutes but that is still convenient enough for most people. The problem is so many people are not aware of it which is why they use the Heathrow Express instead.

And then those who want to save even more money but don't mind the extra journey time can take the Piccadilly Line services. The Piccadilly Line services also directly serve far more locations in central London which will appeal to a lot of people.

From what i have seen most people do not buy advance tickets for services from an Airport in to the City. If you go to any London Airport the ticket offices and TVMs at the railway stations always have huge queues of people purchasing tickets.

I know i have never been on an Airplane before but i have been to Heathrow Airport many times and always noticed that the terminal buildings are covered in advertisements for Heathrow Express but there is almost nothing about the Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services. The staff are also very incompetent and i have seen them lie to people many times and they act like the Heathrow Express is the only service to serve Heathrow Airport.

What Heathrow Express are definitely doing is running a scam in order to scam as much money as possible out of people.

 

[berneyarms]

Most people travelling somewhere in my experience do their research on transport connections online in advance - I just don't accept this notion that the majority of HEx passengers have been "scammed".

There is a market for all three rail options to and from Heathrow and each has their place.

Some posters here (who clearly don't do much international travel) don't seem to understand that.

I don't excuse dishonest sales practices, but I still don't believe that most people flying into LHR don't know their options.

 

[332 > 444]

I am sure there are lots of people out there (including those who travel on airplanes) who want to save money. The Heathrow Connect only takes 8 to 12 minutes longer than the Heathrow Express to get to London Paddington. The Heathrow Express is over double the cost of the Heathrow Connect. So if someone wants to travel on a fast quick train to London Paddington then they would almost certainly take the Heathrow Connect services if they knew about them. Most people will not mind that it only takes 8 to 12 minutes longer. And i know it only runs every 30 minutes but that is still convenient enough for most people. The problem is so many people are not aware of it which is why they use the Heathrow Express instead.

And then those who want to save even more money but don't mind the extra journey time can take the Piccadilly Line services. The Piccadilly Line services also directly serve far more locations in central London which will appeal to a lot of people.

From what i have seen most people do not buy advance tickets for services from an Airport in to the City. If you go to any London Airport the ticket offices and TVMs at the railway stations always have huge queues of people purchasing tickets.

I know i have never been on an Airplane before but i have been to Heathrow Airport many times and always noticed that the terminal buildings are covered in advertisements for Heathrow Express but there is almost nothing about the Heathrow Connect and Piccadilly Line services. The staff are also very incompetent and i have seen them lie to people many times and they act like the Heathrow Express is the only service to serve Heathrow Airport.

What Heathrow Express are definitely doing is running a scam in order to scam as much money as possible out of people.

Enough of this staff slandering nonsense, although those in the arrival areas aren't very impartial, the station staff give a wide range of choice. When I used to work in the ticket offices there (not in arrivals) I gave a wide choice from taxi to Hex. My general rule was if was anything as far as Earl's Ct and somewhere with easy or no interchange, I sent them on the Picc line unless they wanted the faster option, heck I even suggested coach or going via Feltham.

Hex is part of Heathrow Airport Ltd so of course they are going to advertise all over the place but from HEx staff to Heathrow staff, they must give an informed choice. The mobile selling agents...well some used to sell tickets with restrictions unaware :roll:

As others said there's AP tickets now and were always running promotions, so how is it a scam?? I believe the map they hand out shows central London connections and the Picc line does show on it

Anyway, this has gone way off topic, ain't this about the use of the 360s once the 345s come in place? MTR take over the connect come May/Sept so it will be out the hands of Hex then.

 

[matt_world2004]

Most people travelling somewhere in my experience do their research on transport connections online in advance - I just don't accept this notion that the majority of HEx passengers have been "scammed".

There is a market for all three rail options to and from Heathrow and each has their place.

Some posters here (who clearly don't do much international travel) don't seem to understand that.

I don't excuse dishonest sales practices, but I still don't believe that most people flying into LHR don't know their options.

It doesnt need a majority of people to fall for it to be a scam Getting people to buy a service using willfully dishonest sales practices is what makes it a scam.

 

[Taunton]

Chris Grayling, Transport Secretary, must come through Heathrow from government engagements fairly regularly, passing by those self-same ticket touts in arrivals, and one would hope the half-truths and sneaky statements would come to his attention. As indeed they should have come to his predecessors' as well.

Of course the Transport Secretary is doubtless met by the terminal manager and personally escorted all the way through. And the touts are instructed to lay low when they see the entourage approaching.

 

[matt_world2004]

Enough of this staff slandering nonsense, although those in the arrival areas aren't very impartial, the station staff give a wide range of choice. When I used to work in the ticket offices there (not in arrivals) I gave a wide choice from taxi to Hex. My general rule was if was anything as far as Earl's Ct and somewhere with easy or no interchange, I sent them on the Picc line unless they wanted the faster option, heck I even suggested coach or going via Feltham.

Hex is part of Heathrow Airport Ltd so of course they are going to advertise all over the place but from HEx staff to Heathrow staff, they must give an informed choice. The mobile selling agents...well some used to sell tickets with restrictions unaware :roll:

As others said there's AP tickets now and were always running promotions, so how is it a scam?? I believe the map they hand out shows central London connections and the Picc line does show on it

Anyway, this has gone way off topic, ain't this about the use of the 360s once the 345s come in place? MTR take over the connect come May/Sept so it will be out the hands of Hex then.

The map shows the heathrow express on it yet no mention of the picadilly line going to Heathrow. The heathrow express only has one station inaide the travel area


I was standing by Heathrow central tube station between the terminal area and the Heathrow express staff member was saying this "The only rail service to London is this way, the only way to central London by train is that way [pointing to the hex station] "If the heathrow express staff member wasn't lying what did he think the tube was?

 

[swt class 450]

Although i have never been on an Airplane i have still done lots of International travel by train / ferry / bus / car and when i go to other cities in foreign countries i never look at and plan the city transport until i arrive in that city. I have also seen huge amounts of people at Heathrow / Gatwick / Stansted / Luton who don't have a clue on how to get to London. These are the sorts of people who Heathrow Express take advantage of and scam. Not everyone plans before they arrive.

Yes there may be a few staff members that are helpful. But the vast majority of them (probably at least 90% of them) tell lies and mislead customers. I have caught them myself on many occasions lying to customers.

I think that the fact that passengers are being misled and lied to and having information hidden from them on purpose is what makes it a scam.